WilliamChan

I have taken his online course before, it was very, very nice when it comes to physical health benefit. It is one of the quickest path to health to me. The physical health (in Wim Hof) will of course affect your mental health too (more calm, more centered, more focused, more confidence), but not in a very spiritual way (ecstasy, Divine Love, Oneness), in my opinion. So I think it is important to know that it is not Tummo. The feeling of practice is so different. (Please note that I did not go much into the cold shower therapy, and is not a long term practitioner, and so my below conclusion is only based on a mere experience). First, in Wim Hof, there is not many yogic technique applied (neither indian nor tibetan). In the retention, there is no Bandha applied, not requiring your spine to be straight. Only Hyperventilation and Retention matters! (O2 and CO2)! Second, the energy developed feels different too. In Wim Hof I think it has utilized so much energy from the O2 (you will understand when you google his technique). The many lights shown at the end of the retention is very intense, straight to the crown chakra, but it is NOT ecstasy-related (kundalini energy), which you will get from Tummo or Indian Yoga. You will have a very cooling sensation over the head and the whole body. Due to the system of body those energies will also turn into liquid form too (like in Neidan or Yoga), after reaching the center of brain, but since what has been sent to the brain is energy released from O2, instead of kundalini released from pelvic area as in Tummo / Yoga, so what comes down is not Shiva or White Drops. But to me his method is already better than many normal Qigong. If you are looking for a better healthy and emotional stability, Wim Hof method is easier, faster and more doable. If you are a spiritual seeker, or looking for a completely different living quality, I think the traditional Tummo could be better. It is possible that after intense practice for long time, the things mentioned above will change in a way that I have yet to experienced. In Wim Hof's book, The Iceman, it has mentioned that he has once experienced Oneness. He did not describe in detail about his experience, so I do not know for sure, whether it is Oneness as in Yoga definition, and whether he attributes this experience much to his practice of breathing. I really appreciate the effort of Wim Hof. I think his technique can really make a difference to the world someday. For those who are interested in Tummo, I think you could go to http://awakenetwork.org/forum/kfd-archive-wetpaint/12575-tummo?limitstart=0 to see all the details.

Hello. I am new to this forum. My English is not good so please forgive if I have not made myself clear. I am here to share about my experience and hope to exchange ideas with you. I am a Chinese living in Hong Kong. Very fascinated at Neidan since 14 years old, and have been searching for many, many methods for long. There were a very peak development of Qigong in the 60's in China, many different methods have popped up (I personally have kept and read nearly +600 Qigong books, mostly ebooks). Most of them are neo-Qi gong (created recently, and inferior), with so many unnatural "visualizations", which does not do real good to body and mind. Some Qi gong are good, they have roots in Taoism, Chinese Medicine or Sholin, could do a lot good to health, or produce some special little powers, (and few might be able realize the natural mind too); they also talk about micro orbit, or macro orbit, but still too quite far away from the true Neidan. Many claiming themselves Neidan, but is actually advanced Qigong. Though if practiced very carefully, they still do much good to the body and mind. Fortunately I have learnt from a few good masters (both Qigong and Neidan), and also have read manuals written by an extremely experienced and reliable Neidan master (at the same time, researcher with western mind), these make me finally understand many of the ancient texts. Many people have tried to use Qigong to explain Neidan text, which could be false assumption. There are some main differences between them both. Though having known these reliable and reasonable ancient methods after years of search, I am mostly practicing Yoga now, since I think the real Neidan is relatively more difficult to achieve the final goal, compared to Yoga, especially for a person with busy lifestyle like me (I am just lazy, with reasonable effort it is still achievable nowadays). But due to my interest and its similarity with Yoga, I still study books of it even now. Please do not misunderstand that I am trying to claim anything, I am not any master at all, but just want to share!!! Below I will share some of my knowledge, which might not be correct. Please discuss together. 1. Development of Chi Qigong: Using heavy breath method to activate the heat in Dan Tian Heat is the signal of effectiveness Tries to use the heat to go into micro orbit Neidan: Thinks that real Yang only comes from Yin, and therefore does not recognize shallow heat Heat that exists in the body is mostly fake Yang, which could not be the medicine for further development, and could not finally become Neidan The development of Fake Yang is going to increase more and more heat, and the possibility of it is not high There are some methods of obtaining real Yang: Working on meditation and obtaining an extremely quiet mind; using this quiet mind to slightly focus on Dantian. Do not use any force, or you will not be able to obtain Yin, where Yang comes out from it. Second method, for less calm person, is to visualize Chi coming down below ground and stay some while, and when the Yin goes into extreme, it will naturally come up which becomes real Yang. Above is only a simplified and incomplete version. Also, there are more and more methods. The real principle is to first focus on Yin, until real Yang comes. Purpose of Micro Orbit / Macro Orbit Qigong - Clear obstacles inside it to obtain health - And slowly clear all other energy paths (macro orbit) - simplify the whole process into only clearing energy paths, without concerning about what is being transported in the paths, which is the focus of Neidan Neidan - Clear obstacles inside it to free the channel for producing medicine for Neidan - Heat (real yang) coming up to become extreme, reaching the brain and stay for a while, until the brain makes it come real Yin and coming down. This process goes on to keep refining and refining the medicine. - But heat is still only the beginning stage and it is not even called medicine. The refining process will gradually turn the real Yang into something else "original essence" (??? I do not know how to translate in English), which is the real medicine - Until refined real yang comes the sex organs will have special reaction and using special methods to suck it the the brain and refine again (need to have a delightful and clean mind when you decide to suck, or if you have negative thinking, the materials will become inferior, or become after-birth) - Refine until you have special signals which proves the "original essence" (medicine) has come, for example, huge ecstasy moving all over the body, skin becomes to breathe, seeing smoke, seems like drunk, bliss, etc. - Do "Wood and Gold Orbit" (left and right in the body) to further refine it in each session - Slightly pay attention at it after practice in each practice session, focused on it for a while, to make the Spirit and the Original Essence merged together - When this goes on, maybe 300 rounds traditionally, there will be signals that the Big Medicine has come. You will see three times with golden lights, eye shining eye golden lights, hear winds, kidney feels like being burnt etc. It takes 7 days in absolute still state to absorb the big medicine. - ONLY UNTIL THEN, you are in the macro - orbit stage. So, macro - orbit stage does not mean anything about opening channels. It is a stage to describe the Big medicine has come and you could really start to build Neidan in the next coming months, or years. - Also, those channels other than the front and the back channel will be opened too. The 12 Channels will be opened through normal chi exercises that you could find in youtube, and during you circulate energy in micro-orbit you will spread the energy inside it too. And about the other 6 special channels (8 in total, which includes the front and the back channels) will be opened in visualization exercises too (yes, many qigong has it and called in macro-orbit). The reason to open 6 channels is because if it does not open, the chi in your body will still have yin, and cannot be pure yang at the end. So it is to make sure Yang gradually develops in the body as pure as it could. - I am not sure about the further practice so I do not write in here. All in all, Traditional Neidan is to develop and refine the yang and yin and make it gradually become special materials that is extremely good for body at first, and extend original life period secondly (normal qigong could only let your body function better, make you live better, but since it doesnt produce "original essence" and so our designed life span could not be expanded, theoretically; only neidan do), and to return to Tao ultimately. However, the above system of Neidan mentioned is the development over many centuries and finally becoming systematic that suits nearly everybody. It is not the most ancient one I believe, but based on the ancient method to develop things that suit people at their time. Also, if our moral and spirit is very pure and good, it is said that we could skip all the energy part, and directly realizing / staying close to Tao, which could help finish all the above process. Therefore, my shallow and personal opinion is, even Qigong has become quite different to Neidan, if people could really become very calm and mindless and moral, they could still refine the Yang and Yin and reach the same goal. The specific procedure of the above Neidan, I believe, is to suit people of different levels and therefore becoming very complete and detailed. There is example in Tai wan, who has written books about his experience. He practices normal Qigong (advanced one, which includes *AUTO* micro-orbit) but has all the scenario described in the ancient text (but this does not happening to his classmates). He also agrees and says the most important thing is moral and pure mind. Please discuss together and exchange ideas, especially if you have found something incorrect in here, please point it out to have a bigger picture. Is anyone practicing Neidan? Has anyone experienced similar things, no matter what you are practicing? Thank you so much

Part of the Taoism talks about 承負, which is a concept of karma too but it is handed down from generation to generation, which means I shoulder up those from my parents and ancestors. One of the reason is that Taoism focuses on Materials in the world. I think this can be explained by something like DNA.

Fastest way could be, Wim Hof Method (who includes breathing, cold showers, and yoga exercises).

You are right. The evidence I post in here, or other information I have found in other sources, might NOT be enough to make a valid conclusion. Also, my opinions involve my subjective judgement based on the magicians Qigong masters in the past, and my knowledge about what seems to be not possible / not healthy. However, though it is hard to believe how can a large group of people fall inside it, if it is totally fake, I have found there is no lack of examples of Cult in the past, while most of the followers are very good people too. So, maybe, or maybe not. Anyway, please be careful especially when you have to pay a large sum of money for unknown medicine or any other things. I suggest people find their inner medicine too if possible.

If you are looking for dealing with a specific emotion / memory / personality, instead of looking for a profound spiritual transformation, try Emotional Freedom Techniques. http://www.emofree.com/. It combines Chinese Acupressure and Exposure Therapy to release emotion, and it is the most useful technique for a specific emotion I have ever learnt and used for myself and my clients.

As someone asks more about "翟江峰 (Dr. Jiang Feng)", I will post some information in here. I have not personally met him but this is what I could find (some more info but not going to translate in here). This person asks the lady to buy a bottle of water, and when he is testing whether the water contains sweet taste, his assistant has switched the "cover" (which contains sweet) of the bottle. He asks the lady to shake the bottle for around 100 times (to spread the sweet into the water) Secondly, about the blood thing, what he did is to hide up a needle inside his hands, and then throw it away secretly. It is taken by the same news reporter, but this did not clearly show him in the picture. And about his electrical power, one of his students after paying a very high price has disclosed that he just uses something like Tesla Coil to do it. About breaking the stone, many Qigong people in China can do it. Normal people can do it too with tricks. Many other things I believe are all magick tricks. Many Chinese in the old times are magicians. They do it on the street to make a living, and then some might sell some medicine afterwards after attracting a large group of crowd. Few years ago there are some do the same under my apartment. So there are many tricks handed down. Judge carefully. This is the reason why I write so much in the forum. One last thing is, real master will only ask you to depend on yourself, not some kind of expensive medicine. If you want medicine for health, better go to a good Chinese medicine doctor, instead of some magical medicine. There will be no one single "best" / "most effective" medicine, as even the best doctor will alter the ingredients to suit the specific condition of that person. Chinese medicine divides people into many subtle type of body condition and will be very careful in choosing ingredients. If you see one is selling one single type of medicine and telling you that it is superior to all other medicine, probably it is fake. This is the most basic principle of Chinese medicine. Some martial art Qigong will use medicine too, but not expensive too, and they usually tell you all the ingredients and you buy for yourself, since it is not secretive things, just for cultivating a better body as a foundation for practice. Also, they are only something same as Chinese Medicine, while the latter has much more knowledge in depth generally... (For sure! They should be the master in this field! Not qigong masters!) So, nothing special, NO MAGICAL FORMULA. Even if you have felt good in his formula, you will feel much better when you meet a good chinese medicine doctor. Some might misguide people by giving something seemingly very effective which gives you a strong feeling, but, remember about the principle, good attached with bad, bad attached with good; if I give you something extremely "cultivating" and you might feel very energetic in short time, you will eventually feel something being burnt up and these do not really do good health to the body. Softness is the King in all Taoist system. We only improve things gradually... No magical. Tao is soft, simple, subtle and normal. If you feel anything extremes, it is not in the Middle / Mid-way.............. Most importantly, for really advanced Neidan, these are not necessary eventually (or at the beginning already not necessary unless you are very weak). Neidan will tell you the greatest medicine is in your body!

(Deleted technique, as it is only advanced Qigong, but not Neidan)

I feel that you do care about others a lot, as you are trying to remind me for many times, and trying to correct some of my incorrect vocabulary. But the way you express appears to be challenging others on a very high ground, instead of caring about others on the same ground, which creates some bad feelings to me and perhaps others, haha. I would feel much more joyful if we could talk in another way, so that I could better receive the beautiful goodness in your heart (I could feel it!). Just want to share this with you as I treat you as my friend. (Sorry for out of topic). Thank you for your reminder. I know about your concern, fake Yang burns the body. But I have also explained a lot about the differences in between. Real yang v.s. fake yang. (Real yang at first might still feel hot, but will turn into cold when it is very refined; also, when it becomes pill/medicine, it becomes feeling of whole body pure ecstasy, lights, etc.) And about burning of kidney, it seems to be bad, but it is not. It happens at the first stage when the kidney of modern people has lacked too much real yang. So it would not burn forever. It happens secondly when the Big Pill comes. It is a very advanced stage and it is different from burning the nervous system in a bad way. In sutra you could see 《仙佛合宗》说：须知大药生时，六根先自震动。这时丹田火炽，两肾汤煎，眼吐金光，耳后风生，脑后鹫鸣，身涌鼻搐一类，为得药之景，所得即为大药，这一时刻即叫“正子时”。Which means, "when the big Pill comes, the doors of six sensations first vibrate. The dan tian feels like being burnt, the eyes shinning out golden light, winds appear behind your ears, XXX (certain type of animal called 鷲) yells / sound of a kind of musical instrument behind your brain, ..........." This is not the only sutra that talks about this scene when the big Pill comes. For exmaple, 《丹道九篇》, 《道鄉集》 ... Quan zhen master 伍沖虛 also says if you belong to Quanzhen you will meet the above scenes when the Big Pill comes. Even if you are doing purely Non-doing teachings (unlike the traditional Neidan), you are supposed to meet these scenes. Skipping the techniques (non-doing) does not mean to skipping the results (Dan). 馬丹陽 (I believe you belong to his lineage) also says “學道者無他，務在養炁而已。夫心液下降，腎炁上升，至於脾，元炁氤氳不散，則丹聚矣". Even his practices focus mainly on Non-doing, he also mentions about how the Dan is formed. How to get 腎炁 rises? Micro-orbit. How to get 心液 flows down? Micro-orbit. (If you tell me that they merge when one gets calm in meditation even without Micro-orbit, it is only a very low level of merging that is mentioned in Chinese Medicine, instead of the very intelligent Neidan which could actually extends the life-span. No micro-orbit, no 去礦留金, no refinement of Chi, no Dan....... Unless you are extremely and rarely talented to go through all these through non-doing). How to get 元炁氤氳不散? Many ways, wooden-golden orbit is the most common one. And finally, how to get 丹聚? Mental awareness on the Dan Tian after the above procedure to make the Shun and the Chi merge together. These are the procedures of Neidan. It does not matter how you feel your technique is better, but if you practice the correct lineage, the Dan of this and the Dan of that will always be the same (or slightly different). You belong to Quanzhen, right? You must be familiar with 王重陽, the master of all your Quanzhen masters, right? He learns from 呂洞賓, 鍾離權 and 劉海蟾. If you want to know about the essence of Quanzhen, I suggest you could read the writings of them all, or even 靈寶畢法 too. They are all successors of Neidan. The things I have mentioned here are about what they have taught. Even though some might be lost or altered, the essence is always the same. Yang, Yin, Jing, Chi, Shun, Dan, Micro-obit, External Pill, Internal Pill, Small Pill, Big Pill, Dao. How can it be different? 清靜派, 遇仙派, 馬丹陽, or some other masters from Quanzhen, they might have different approach, a more straight forward / non-doing one, but the essence is essentially the same. Don't get lost in a particular lineage or a particular special master. This is all I am going to share with you. Please excuse me for not further discussing Neidan with you as you seem to raise out similar vague statements for arguments.

Sorry. I think I have made a mistake in translation. I have checked the dictionary and it should be seal script / zhuàn tǐ. About the scenarios, I re-think again, still, it could possibly be magical tricks that I do not know about the mechanism behind, it is better not to be shared. Though, I believe him personally. Li Qingyun, very few information I could find here. He has taught some simple good qigongs though. But about what really keeps him long life like this, it has just been said he was doing a special type of baguazhang. I think very few people have received this teaching. Never heard of 墨派, even after search in Chinese websites there are no results. Not sure if it is an ancient lineage or a newly invented lineage. Wang Liping, very famous in China. I believe he is an extremely advanced neidan master. I have read his books and knew some of his students. Very reliable. 翟江峰, DONT BELIEVE IN HIM. He is definitely a liar. Horrible liar. Is he making a fortune in western countries? If yes it would be very sad... http://www.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily/article/headline/20070715/3644468/ (HK media that discloses his stories)

Thank you. I was referring to Kunlun by Max. But I guess I misinterpreted it as a mere automatic movement qigong. About other Kunlun I am not familiar with them. Heard of one before but full of fairy tales. Thank you so much for the reminder. Feel pleasant to discuss in here.

Neidan lineages concretely? My definition is based on your definition. It seems you go against ALL the neidan lineages, EXCEPT YOURS --- the only special lineage that knows the secret. Perhaps you shall be the one to tell me concretely about what lineages you do not consider as "harmful and useless" / "dead-end" (and why too), so I could concretely suggest you what lineages I feel you should have respect with ("respect" does not mean "agree", it just means to make criticism / conclusion AFTER you have studied and experienced about it). However, I do not consider this to be a fruitful discussion anymore, since your reply does not contain any precise information for us to have a healthy exchange of ideas. How I wish you could do that so that I can know more about a new possibly better lineage and understand why other neidans might be outdated. I wish to learn (with fruitful discussion and careful conlusion, of course). But I guess this is common for secretary lineages practitioner. Though I do not agree with the points you make, and do not believe there is ONE secretary lineage superior to all other ancient neidan lineages, I am still glad that you have found what you want. (To me, a superior Taoism lineage means those who conform to ancient Taoism sutras, which is the core principle behind, and there would not be one superior principle, since principle is the common ground behind, the rest is only face value; also, according to the Taoism philosophy, neidan mechanism and teachings of master, good always attached with bad, and bad always attached with good; those having great benefits will be necessarily attached with big drawbacks too, which is the balance of the universe, and so there is no one single "most" powerful techniques.) The last thing I want to share with you is that, I think the fruits of practice can only be revealed from your intimacy with the people. Hope we both achieve what we want. Good luck.

I don't understand, my friend. You keep suggesting none can achieve. While you mention that your master, and probably you, has already achieved. Why? Why only could people on "your side" achieve? I hope you are not suggesting that your lineage and your master is so special that nothing can be compared. I hope you are not suggest that there is any superior spiritual "brand" and people inside it is closer to Tao. To be frank, based on the things that you suggest, what you are practicing might be only one of the many Neidan lineages, which focuses on Non-doing right at the beginning stage, some lineages like 清靜派. I am not criticizing but it is only a very common spiritual lineage that you can find anywhere, not only in Taoism. Also, I personally would not take this approach since only the very ripe and talented students could do that. Some of us need to take some more doing approach and gradually go back to non-dong. This also conforms to the philosophy of Taoism. My point is, different people have different needs; and only those needs can tell us what is the best practice. But still, our goal is the same. Anyway, my main point is what you are practicing is very good, but it is probably no special, no superior to others. Please respect other lineages, and this is one of the essence of Tao too. Tao is water, you just flow with it. You never hold on to some emotional beliefs and make emotional judgement ("superiority" might be the emotion implied here). Lastly, most of your evidence is some vague statement about things like "it is difficult to become Saint", etc. The fact that you use these simple statements to go against all other neidan lineages is not precise enough. These statements can go against your lineage too, unless you are not doing Taoism. Also, the number might just be poetic description about how difficult / noble is when one can achieve Saint. I do not think it is to discourage people to seek for Tao. If you really have found a better path, I hope you could share how do you feel in your practice; why is it more effective to achieve, when compared to other lineages; how to practice in a better way. I hope you could help people to see the goodness of your practice, by sharing some joy with people. That's the real fruit of the practice!

Thank you so much. Your explanation is very clear, precise and hits to the point. I appreciate that so much. I guess you are an adept in this field. One more thing to add on is that some Qigong is beyond the scope of the above definition (the preparation for Neidan). So the Chi it accumulates is not pre heaven chi, not post heaven real yang, but only heat. Too heavy mind and breath and open channel artificially, which is dangerous in the long term. Material art internal qigong is sometimes this type of qigong. Would you also like to share some of your experiences with Neidan? What is your expectation, and how does it go so far? Thank you so much!

Below is a reply to a friend here about a Qigong (not neidan) method. Just for reference please do not practice just based on this one. It is a well known qigong in China and practiced by many even now. Below is the reply: If you are just aiming micro orbit for health and not intending to go for deeper, there is a very reliable qigong called Zhen Qi Yun Xing. You could have a search. It is very easy and they say it could be self learn. (I have only reached the micro-orbit stage through it and then did not go on with its practice). in sitting posture, do very natural and normal breathing in the whole process without control (no need reverse or non-reverse, just do whatever you will do when you dont have control). relax your mind, body and breath. when you breathe out, slightly pay attention at your stomach area (but in the mid path of your body). rmb it is not a point but an area large like your palm. the tongue is not that important do whatever pose you want. just do that until it becomes hot. when it gets hotter it will automatically go down to your dan tian. never let it goes up (it rarely does, unless you have some physical or mental problems). by that time, turn your focus on dan tian in each exhale. inhale , no thought at all, do not need to be mindless or be focused at anywhere, just dont have to care about inhale is ok, just wait until next exhale is ok, just being natural is ok. when your dan tian gets hot enough, stop being focused on exhale. dont have to care a lot about the breath. now just focus on the heat. the heat draws your attention. of course, still, relax in the whole process. the more relaxed you are the more refined yang you get. just stay here. the next sessions you do, you can at first do the exhale focus until it gets hot and then focus on it. or if it gets hot already then dont need to do it. rmb, dont get it too hot. the exhale breath is like lightening the fire, and the focus only is like cultivating it. so when it already hot, dont need to lighten it up anymore, just watch at it like a soft baby. until someday it will go back to your pelvic floor and then your lower back and then go back to the back, so on. rmb, do not ever, never, try to guide the chi goes. it is accumulating slowly and gets enough power and automatically go up to micro orbit. dont force its process. also, sometimes the chi will want to skip the pelvic floor and directly go to the back. dont let it happen too. but its ok if you cannot control as its not dangerous. just that pelvic floor is the place to product yang, if you skip it, your chi will have no yang inside. so micro orbit has to include pelvic floor, before going to the lower back. and then massage your dantian first, for some while, and then whole body, from top to down, after each session. this is simplified closing ceremony version only, you can do a better one that has been disclosed by other lineage. but the one i have mentioned should be enough. rmb you dont want the chi still wandering around in the body after your session. the massage is to make it go back to dan tian at first. and whatever is left can be circulated in the whole body. rmb, the whole thing is to be relaxed... dont force breath, dont force your visualization. dont do all that. i suggest the most safe procedure is to sit for 15 mins or more, until you get really relaxed, and then do it . well, i suggest not to do pole breathing...... it might make you release your chi. when will pole breathing happen? even if you dont do neidan, and just do this advanced qi gong, it will come FOR SURE. when after micro orbit, and when macro orbit comes (in qi gong term only), the whole body pathway will be gradually opened. until all the pathway open up, your whole body is full of qi. i hope at that time you have already learnt to stay totally relaxed and never let it come fake yang or else your whole body will be burnt and become unhealthy. well, at that time, your breath will stop. the true pole breathing comes only when your whole body path way opened, because at that time the pole can be opened too and exchange air. all in all, the steps of the whole qi gong are, 1. relax 2. exhale focus 3. focus the heat 4. the heat goes into micro orbit gradually (maybe 1 month u r still in the middle of back, another month you reach the top of head, 3 month you finally rotate) 5. after that, in each session, just focus on dan tian and let it move by its own will, relaxed rmb 6. gradually it will go through all the pathways additional exercise follow the normal thing, like, dont do it when ur sad or angry, dont do it when its thunder or huge natural disasters or when many ppl die, dont do it 1 hr after meal, dont go to toilet or bathing 30 minutes after practice, do some walking or sports when you feel something wrong and stop practice, drink milk could be good too, notice if you mouth get dry something is wrong, becuase there are many fake yang , stop practice for a while and do more massage or other things, and then evaluate if you have become too stressed out that creat fake yang in your practice, or you are using too much visualization, too much force, or you are doing too much qi gong i am not sure if it can combine with your current exercise.... but if anything is doing with the energy pathway in your body i strongly suggest you to stop it when u do this. dont interfere the energy move when you do this powerful qi gong. also, i suggest you to do some moving taosim exercise (i would not say it is qigong) like tai chi, before you practice. there is reason to help you progress faster but i am not going to mention in depth. the above is the whole process of advanced qi gong. some could go to no breath and no heart beating movement. examples are in tai wan. and some could realize the Tao in that state. examples are in china (based on their personal sharing). at their level, just focus on dan tien everytime and naturally let it move to anywhere it wants. then the chi will do all the work for you. so it is already the complete path i have shared with you. learn some moving taoism exercise that helps you get healthier to assist. Zhen Qi Yun Xing if you could find masters in it you could give a try too. it is not neidan but might reach the most profound state too. just rmb, when you feel dry in the mouth, it is a very important signal that soemthing has gone wrong!!!! it is the largest risk of this type of advanced qigong when compared to neidan. just always notice how your body goes with common sense. maybe regularly go to a chinese medicine doctor to see how your body status is. if you get healthy and happier then there is no way it is going wrong. good luck my friend

Some friends here have asked me to comment on some Neidan practices; to be frank I am just a beginner who just know 1% of it. Please let me just share all I know about the procedure of Neidan and discuss together. Below is part of the amended reply to the friend in here: Elements of Dan is mostly completed in micro orbit (north and south, up and down of body) and wooden golden orbit afterwards (east and west, left and right of body); plus your mental focus on the Dan after all the energy exercises to let the Spirit and Chi merge together. This process helps to refine yang and yin, especially focusing on yang, the refined sexual energy. The main thing is to see if you have progress in your dan tan and how does the chi make you feel. If no bliss feeling no light no ecstacy etc. it is still low yang. If it is too hot and keep rising then it is even not real yang. Unhealthy yang only. If a lineage talk deeply about micro orbit / Jinyang huo Tuiyin fu, and tell you how to refine it step by step, how to suck up the pill etc., then it conforms to Neidan too. Important to see if they only talk about keep circulating micro obit meaninglessly for no reason, or they tell you in advanced stage, when you feel real yang comes do you suck up the medicine / or other methods (*if you have not been through micro orbit and not yet open the two channels, only suck up to dan tian; if you have been through, up to the brain and wait until it comes back gradually or with breath by saliva and chi). When there is no pill dont suck up for no reason. All in all, the process is simple. First use breath or standing pose or whatever to create real yang in your body until the dan tian gets heated up. Second stage: main practice is just focus on it until it gradually go through the micro orbit. meanwhile, whenever you feel sexual bliss but without any negative lustful thoughts (***important: at that time, your organ will be likely to go up, BUT NOT YET GO UP OR ELSE THE MEDICINE IS TOO OLD!), suck it up into dan tian until the organ goes down (or to the brain if you have already cleared the blockage of front and back channels). Still focus on the dan tian in every session with patience and then the real yang will gets more and more stronger and go into micro orbit automatically with more and more frequency. And then, the small pill will come again and again (which means the sexual bliss plus the sexual organ LIKELY but not yet raise up), and then suck it up. After sucking it up, focus on the dan tian relaxedly again as like "feeding" it and wait until next time. Simple, after basic practices and after built up good yang in dan tian, all you have to do is to : focus on dan tian, and then the result is : let it do automatic micro orbit, or, when pill comes you suck it up, and then go back to "focus on dan tian" again. For better result you need to do wooden-golden orbit too to further refine it and make it absorbed in your body. But not going to go through in detail here, until you have already reached the micro orbit. (These go on until the BIG medicine come and you will see Golden Light for 3 times (I have never experienced this stage, but this is according to masters, sutras and books). All the chi will automatically stop at that time and you need to again suck it up to the brain. Huge vibration in your sensual doors will happen. Kidneys feel like being burnt. Do wooden-golden orbit once again but in the high dan tian. After some other details, the real yang finally merge with the real yin and then you will be DEAD for 7 days when the medicine come back to your Dan Tian. It becomes the true MACRO ORBIT. Practice time is 9 pm to 1 am. The above procedure is still simplified, especially about the big medicine. Also, after this stage I do not know about the detailed techniques. But you will find all the hints in the sutra and know what to do.

Thank you for telling. This is what I could find in the website at that time. I think I might have missed many. I apologize for being reckless to draw such conclusion. My above comment is only towards automatics movement qigong.

The Neidan I am describing in my first post is actually of Dragon Gate tradition, which is one of the lineage of traditional Quanzhen. If you are really practicing Quanzhen you must have understood about what I have said in the post. Moreover, Quanzhen alchemy, which is later alchemy, does not talk about physical immortality anymore, so when you asked me about what can Neidan achieve, it would be to merging with Tao. About your perspective, with so much respect to you and your master I disagree: 1) It is not a careful conclusion to just raise out one or two fragmented sutras and dismiss the further discussion of a very fruitful tradition without even going deeper to discuss the methodology, historical background, etc.. 2) Even the writer of your sutra is a Neidan Practitioner. 劉一明 has written so many texts about the importance of practice BOTH spirit and body (chi) --- “若欲成道，非性命双修不可”. Of course nowadays very few people are practicing Neidan, and very few of them practice the correct one. And of course very very few people succeed. But traditionally when people have learnt the right one, with effort they succeed. So if we change the situation now by disclosing more and more about Neidan, the correct methods, more will succeed. 3) Have you ever studied Neidan? Or just follow the idea of certain masters? If you have studied you will see the things describe in here is never impossible. It doesnt ask you to do magical flying etc. It is not even DANGEROUS. Not useless too for sure as it gets normal people much healthier, even though they did not succeed at last. I have many experience of cultivating real Yang that sexual BLISS going throughout my body, lights and things like that. So I personally believe this can happen. 4) Do you know nearly most of the first generation masters in Quanzhen actually practice Neidan? Do you know that nowadays many Tao Masters could not access to Neidan and therefore they just have to only follow the Spiritual teaching? Do you know that pure Spirit / philosophical teaching is only for those who is VERY talented and could go directly into Tao without even doing anything? Many people nowadays could not do that, just like me. And Neidan is actually a step by step guide going back to Tao. If you do not have a healthy pure yang body, the dirt of mind will be destroying you in your deepest consciousness as a form on subtle energy blockage. So if you could clear up the blockages and more, Tao is here. Again, as the author of your quote says: “若欲成道，非性命双修不可”. A Quanzhen master have tried to become a alive dead man for many years. And when he goes out he thought he has succeeded. Only until he hears people talking about the dismay of the country, his heart moves again and he know he still does not succeed. At that time he admits that solely practice Spirt/Mind is very difficult to succeed. Have you heard of this story? If you wish I could find the source but it would take some time. At last, my dear friend, I know you are very into your lineage and teachings. I am sure what you are doing is taught by a beautiful tradition. I am very glad that you could echo to such pure Taoist teachings without even preparing for the earlier stage. If I have the talents like you, I would not go for any energy cultivation for sure. However, please understand that nowadays Neidan is not as mysterious as in the ancient. The late Neidan is about merging with Tao, instead of physical immortality. It could help so many people with health. I hope you could first study about Neidan and then do your argument. Or else, some empty arguments will not help yourself and others to see the whole picture. Thank you so much and let's abide with Tao now.

Yes of course. There are too many unnecessary dogmas and rumors about a secretary linage. Very few people in the ancient time could have the chance to even hear about Neidan. Gradually it builds a huge distance. Moreover, the quote you have made is originally written by a General, when he is writing about discourses about doing war. It is not an authoritative saying and does not give too much meaning. There are many such poetic sayings in many different religions too. Can we believe all of it? Another reason why we should not believe all of it, is that Neidan has been spread into toooooo many different lineages, and each has its own saying. Meanwhile, many say if you have the right method, you will succeed FOR SURE. The most important thing is to find a PARTICULAR lineage, and see how the masters think and talk about Success. If they also think it is not impossible, then I think it could be true in their lineage. But not for all lineage. There are still successors. Lastly, how do we tell if it is possible, or not possible? Read the REAL techniques, skip the dogma and rumours, and evaluate yourself. If you have read about the techniques, you will see that, there are so many similarities with the Indian Tantra at the beginning stage. The Back Channel locates at the same place with their Sushumna. When it reaches the head, it turns into cool liquid and going back down to create bliss (mico-orbit). Even in the later stage, Big medicine happens when the *very refined* real Yang comes up to meet the real Yin in the head, and people go into dead state for 7 days until it comes back. It looks very similar to when Shakti "fully awakened" and travel up to meet Shiva and fully absorbed into it (real yang and real yin merges and become "Tai Chi" / "Oneness"); until that time practitioners are into dead state, since his consciousness/shaiti/yang has become one with the Source/yin/Tao. And when he/she comes back, the Shiva travels with Shakti and the whole world become different. (though there is still slight difference focus). Based on the similarity between both and many yogis could actually do it nowadays, I would assume it is equally achievable in Neidan too. We have the same body and nervous system. Both is still possible nowadays. Successors (many in yoga, very few in Neidan) have been sharing about their experience. If they can, others can too. Also, practice of Neidan is not that mysterious. Everyone can begin with too. But of course, even it is unlike the uncorn's horn saying and can be achieved by normal person with much effort, it is still very difficult (and in my opinion more difficult than Yoga). If you are talking about physical immortality in Neidan, or rainbow body is Yoga/The Great Perfection, I do not have any idea about the possibilities of it, since I still have not met or read any reliable source. But it is surely not for me and not for everyone, as even the most sincere followers might fail too. If this is what you are trying to say, I agree with you. May I know what do you practice (or only non-doing) ? Why do you choose to practice in this way? How is your experience so far?

I do also agree that Daoism gives much solution to life, since it has the most detailed explanations about everything, compared to other religions, in my opinion. Even many ancient Chinese Medicine Doctors are Neidan Practitioners who discovered the body in a very deep sense and created the healing theory. But sadly we are used to hide the techniques or only pass down to one or two lifelong students. Many good things are lost. This year, I have quit my job because I have found a real Master in Malaysia and went to find him. His lineage is from the ancient time and so the writing in it is mostly Hieroglyphic; the lineage has been only passed in the mountain (he never receive students and gradually we have lost contact). I have seen so many non-explainable scenarios. So I truly believe some methodology are real. Such things exist. But I do not go for mysterious things anymore. The highest is Tao in itself, others are moon in the water.

Please dont mind if I have lost the beauty in the original sentence. Learners are as many as cow's hair, successors are as few as unicorn horns.

One more point I would like to make is, true Neidan focuses on absorbing and refining. The Chi in the body is becoming more and more weightless and refined. It is kept deep inside the body like a very refined materials, which gives you ecstasy feelings. So high quality Chi will not stimulate and move your body like this. If so, those Chi is still on the outer surface in the body so that it can stimulates body movements. (according to some masters, sometimes Neidan practitioners will activate these automatic movement too, but definitely not for long). On the other hand, in some practices, Chi will make you feel hot and feel like it is surrounding your body. In short period of time people feel healthier, but weaker in long term. Since these could be fake Yang, keep becoming hotter and hotter, that will burn the Yin in your body and make you feel thirsty always.

Kunlun was not popular in China. But much prior to Kunlun there are many same type of Qigong popped up in China and in Taiwan. Neidan does not talk about Spirits at all, since they think they control their own life. There is no ritual, blessings, or things like that (originally). But since I have been practicing Chinese mystics for years too, I want to make some "superstitious" idea, ignore it if you feel it is non-sense (it is not an important point). Kunlun-like practices could be dangerous when it comes to spirits/ghost. If you could read Chinese just look at how notorious such kind of practices are in Taiwan, that some people got haunted, crazy, eventually. I believe it does really happen in Taiwan, but it could be due to cultural reason. You attract what you think. Taiwanese are really into these magical things, and if Kunlun-like practices has opened up their paths, that such things might take place to resonate what they want. Or, maybe it is just sub-consciousness stuff brought up under an emotional triggering atmosphere, which leads to emotional imbalance. Anyway, if a healthy mind person who does not think of these things, it is not a problem. I hope in Kunlun they dont talk about spirits or magic.... If they do, it is dangerous. May I know why do you want to learn Neidan? I wanted to learn it suddenly when I was 14. When I read the sutra and the pictures of it I just felt I am home. This simple feeling keeps me pursuing until now. Also, Neidan is for everyone. There are preparatory but advanced techniques. I could introduce some to you if you really want to practice, cuz it takes a lot of time to translate the many words to ensure safe practice. But I am just a student like you to help in some translations only, who has no real experience. Thank you so much for your kind reply Yes, stay Yin first

Yes. But if you want to go to that far through real Neidan, the system will become a little complex, since it has more uncertainties compared to other systems (imagine you are doing cooking, you have to be aware of many things like the fire, the water, the ingredients, etc., if the fire heats up too much, the egg will be spoiled...... while in other practices, the path seems to be more regular). Please know that it is just my personal opinion and assumption, as I am not successor in any path. But some might have a very huge passion in Chinese culture and its spiritual practice, and will only want to find out the true Neidan; if so, It would be good if you could read Chinese so that I could suggest you some very reliable and practical sources (or else, I could only translate a little basic concept in here for interest). Another Chinese way, I think, is to practice advanced Qigong that gives you safe AUTOMATIC micro-orbit. It is inferior compared to the highest Neidan but I think it might succeed too, though the result will be subtly different. Another way is to do Tai Chi mindlessly. Abide in the stillness. It will do too. I have a master has enlightening experience in it. He says the world has completely changed after that. He can do some very special performance too...... I am not enlightened. But these are the experiences, ideas that I have learned from people or read throughout the years.

I think there are different stages of pursue. In very early time many pursue to be physically immortal. And in later time it focuses more on the immortality of the Soul, which is to abide with Tao. The chi or internal alchemy is all for going back to Tai Chi (it happens when the real Yang goes up reach the real Yin as mentioned above, the big medicine, and the body will be in complete still stage for 7 days, according to text), and gradually return to Tao. Beyond time and space.