Bindi

On 22/4/2024 at 5:33 PM, old3bob said:

 

I think that is a great excerpt from said author!   The light/Shakti for him is  described as settling into a wonderful/awesome 24/7 presence and who could ask for more concerning  evolution!   I'd also say it can be piercing like an arc-light that is way to bright and blinding to look at although that may just be part of a transition to his description?  Yet if light goes inside of itself what will it find, I'd say its Source...beyond description and memory which can not nail it down.

 

 

 

 

Too bright, too hot, too painful, too anything, is to my understanding because conditions weren’t set up adequately for kundalini to rise. 

On 22/3/2024 at 4:46 PM, old3bob said:

 

Thanks for sharing your descriptive and personal reflections Bindi! 

Btw.  in your studies what teachings have you come across for the end game of the casual or evolving soul body?  (while teachings on the Self say it never has and never does evolve for then it could it also devolve...)

 

Sorry it took so long to respond, I came across this description from Gopi Krishna recently, I concur with his concept of us as evolving organisms, and that kundalini is the factor that allows the next sense evolution to occur. I’m not sure this is what you were asking actually, as this is the current end game for us as embodied organisms, not just a soul body, but this is all I’ve got! 

Thinking across disciplines and philosophies, Krishna’s light seems highly likely to be the Shen referred to in Daoism/Neidan. Also the “Stupendous intelligence that I can sense but never fathom, [which] looms behind every object and every event in the universe, silent, still, serene, and immovable like a mountain” sounds remarkably like the Dao. 
 

I think all inappropriate judgement would cease if someone sorted through all their emotional and mental baggage, thereby absolving themselves of any further need for ego to protect themselves - and I think this is actually possible to achieve. 

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

The term non-dualism (also the terms qualified non-dualism and duality) have been around for a very long time in traditional "eastern" ways!   Meaning a very long time before some or certain "western" intellectuals or wana-be types co-opted it and set up schools of dubious doctrine;  so does that now mean that all non-dualists are in the same pot as that?  I'd say no by a long shot; and granted proven precautions need be taken with teachers and schools but neither are all yogi's,  guru's, Christians, shrinks, etc..  in the same pots because some have co-opted aspects of those teachings for ego driven designs, or fanatical like misunderstandings,  thus we have some bad apples making the all the barrels look bad.   Such has come into play for just about every "way" that has come down the pike but to me that doesn't mean being a die-hard cynic about such situations is the best course to take, and I think its fair to ask where will such an attitude get a person?

 

From the same source that I quoted previously, there was also this paragraph. 

When the mind, having pure sattva as its characteristic remains attending to the aham sphurana, which is the sign of the forthcoming direct experience of the Self, the downward-facing heart becomes upward-facing, blossoms and remains in the form of that [the Self]; [because of this] the aforesaid attention to the source of the aham sphurana alone is the path. When thus attended to, Self, the reality, alone will remain shining in the centre of the Heart as ‘I am I’.

Bhagavan included the full text of verse 18 and 19 of Ulladu Narpadu Anubandham after ‘downward-facing heart’ in the original Tamil, but to include them again here would make the text rather cumbersome. However, it is clear that he was supplementing the material in those verses by saying that at the moment of realisation the closed downward-facing bud turns upwards, blooms, and remains in that state.

So, there are two key things that happen at the moment of realisation: the ‘tiny hole’ opens and remains permanently open, and the inverted bud turns upwards and blooms.

 I’ve been thinking about this for a couple of days, my mother saw a downward facing bud in my heart area a couple of years ago, she saw it turn upward, she saw the exact mechanism by which it managed this action, she then saw it bloom and like a lily open and close a few times, grow higher, then change from dark red to white, open slowly again, and reveal a miniature ‘me’ sitting inside. This was over quite a few days btw, and I recall briefly chatting to another TDB member about it at the time. I have mentioned before that my mother never had any idea what she was seeing, and to be honest the only way I have been able to start cobbling together any sort of map of the subtle energy body is largely by reading what other people have seen and said about it, and trying to start seeing the big picture of it all using my own logic. What I would say in relation to the above quote and how it relates to my path, is that this was not my realised Self, though perhaps it was an aspect of Self that hasn’t been realised yet in some way, perhaps the hole that he mentioned didn’t open concurrently, but what Ramana says at least leads to some small possible piece of this puzzle being explained in the slightest way. Just hearing that he has seen this helps me in a way. 
 

But just seeing some part of the subtle body isn’t even the final word, as understanding what it means in reality can only be done with the best information currently at hand and very strict logic. An analogy might be a person seeing something through a microscope when it was first invented, and really not having a clue about what they were seeing,  but over time and with a lot of people adding information to the puzzle, things will get named and how things actually work at a microscopic level will start to be understood. 

I relate this snippet precisely to explain why I am highly cynical about general claims of awakening and enlightenment and realisation from people who aren’t talking about these things and deny the existence of this level, preferring concepts of realisation beyond all physical and subtle levels of oneself. 
 

17 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Btw, there is a saying in Buddhism that I don't fully remember at the moment along the lines of: "no blame"  and also one in Taoism along the lines of not striving with others fosters no blame.

Any one should feel free to further propound on those sayings if they'd like to since its early in the morning here and I'm not that up on them anyway...

 

 

40 minutes ago, Bindi said:

The ‘anatomical’ model of enlightenment includes the idea that there is a channel from the Heart-centre to the brain (the jivanadi) through which the ‘I’-thought travels to the brain and back. Bhagavan accepted this and used it to critique traditional yoga practices which sought realisation by doing exercises that made the kundalini rise from the muladhara to the sahasrara chakra. He maintained that realisation would only result if the kundalini was brought down to the Heart centre

The way I see it kundalini doesn’t naturally rise above the heart centre unless it is interfered with by the mind and hard methods, until it is meant to. What I do agree with is that something important happens in the heart centre associated with kundalini. 

40 minutes ago, Bindi said:

through the jivanadi, and he sometimes added that since self-enquiry would achieve this automatically, specific yogic exercises to achieve this goal were not needed.
 

Both Lakshmana Swamy and Saradamma have spoken of experiencing this jivanadi (they call it the amritanadi) and both support, on the basis of their direct experience of this channel, Bhagavan’s assertion that the individual ‘I’ rises and falls through this channel. In Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, Bhagavan was specifically asked if this jivanadi was real or not:

Question: Is the Jivanadi an entity or a figment of the imagination?

Bhagavan: The yogis say that there is a nadi called the jivanadi, atmanadi or paranadi. The Upanishadsspeak of a centre from which thousands of nadis branch off. Some locate such a centre in the brain and others in other centres. The Garbhopanishad traces the formation of the foetus and the growth of the child in the womb. The jiva is considered to enter the child through the fontanelle in the seventh month of its growth. In evidence thereof it is pointed out that the fontanelle is tender in a baby and is also seen to pulsate. It takes some months for it to ossify. Thus the jiva comes from above, enters through the fontanelle and works through the thousands of the nadis which are spread over the whole body. Therefore the seeker of Truth must concentrate on the sahasrara, that is the brain, in order to regain his source. Pranayama is said to help the yogi to rouse the kundalini sakti which lies coiled in the solar plexus. The sakti rises through a nerve called the sushumna, which is embedded in the core of the spinal cord and extends to the brain.

If one concentrates on the sahasrara there is no doubt that the ecstasy of samadhi ensues. The vasanas, that is the latencies, are not however destroyed. The yogi is therefore bound to wake up from the samadhi, because release from bondage has not yet been accomplished. He must still try to eradicate the vasanas in order that the latencies yet inherent in him may not disturb the peace of his samadhi. So he passes down from the sahasrara to the heart through what is called the jivanadi, which is only a continuation of the Sushumna. The sushumna is thus a curve. It starts from the solar plexus, rises through the spinal cord to the brain and from there bends down and ends in the heart. When the yogi has reached the heart, the samadhi becomes permanent. Thus we see that the heart is the final centre. (Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi, talk no. 616)

My feeling from reading this is that Bhagavan is describing a real process, not something metaphorical or figurative.

 

https://www.davidgodman.org/the-role-of-the-heart-centre-in-self-realisation/

 

Double post

2 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

I'd say that last sentence is more or true if taken as or is based only on a conceptional/intellectual manifesto which most anyone could spin up. (and which btw. could have certain value at that level)  Anyway from many of your posts Bindi  it sounds like you're striving to put  most "non-duality" people or schools in the same and incomplete pot as that?  Whereas true non-duality realization (aka. as Self realization in the small lotus of the heart as pointed to in the Upanishads or some other teachings) does not and can not be limited in that way; namely empty of meaning and as an "unguided rocket fired off into space".

I am aware of a higher consciousness that has the potential to actively command forces within us that are currently locked away, milling around behind closed doors waiting for orders. Nonduality doesn’t acknowledge these forces, so it doesn’t offer a way to unlock them.  Nondualism is a sewn up system, any desire to shift away from it is philosophically defeated immediately as it decries desire, it is actually restrictive and if believed works against the unfolding of the subtle energy system. 
 

Another perspective on nonduality:

“In the Upanishads the [spiritual] heart is described as a secret place (guha), the cave of the heart. It is a small space, dahara akasha, in which the entire universe is held in seed form. Once we draw our awareness there we become one with all. We move from the individual to the universal.” https://www.vedanet.com/releasing-the-knots-of-the-heart-hridaya-granthi/

 But… if kundalini has previously become stable at the heart level, then mundane self-consciousness identification can shift to kundalini consciousness identification there. Identification as a higher consciousness. To me nondual awareness is missing the “I” passenger, an empty unguided rocket fired off into space. 

On 17/3/2024 at 7:55 AM, idiot_stimpy said:

Question for discussion, is a nondual realisation equivalent to a kundalini activation?

 

Are they both a means to the same end? 

 

A nondual seeing simulating the kundalini, or energetically stimulating the kundalini leading to a nondual seeing?

I think an authentic kundalini activation might lead to an authentic nondual awakening, I don’t think it works the other way round though. 

KUNDALINI AWAKENING BY SWAMI NIRANJANANANDA SARASWATI

Swami Niranjanananda Saraswati is from the lineage of the Bihar School of Yoga, which he also headed for many years. 

He has authored several books that have been published by the Bihar School of Yoga.

In one of his books – Prana and Pranayama – he talks about the experience of kundalini awakening which he calls the experience of cosmic prana. 

“…When the full potential of this energy (kundalini) is released, it travels up through the Sushumna Nadi, bringing about a complete metamorphosis of the individual. 

Cosmic prana and kundalini are synonymous terms. In awakening the kundalini, one unites with the cosmic prana.

At the time of the awakening, the two forces of prana and Chitta (mindset or state of mind) assume perfect balance within the individual and become one. 

The mind undergoes a state of fission and energy issues forth. 

There is an explosion of Satya, a moment of Truth, when one sees everything as luminous. 

One experiences oneself in every object of the universe, every person, leaf, and rock. 

The realization of cosmic prana is attained and the experience of separation dissolves. 

People who have experienced this union are called saints or liberated beings, as they have transcended duality by taming the infinite, universal energy within the microcosmic unit. 

The ultimate yoga is experienced at this level, where one discovers the abiding consciousness, sat-chit-ananda, truth, expansiveness, and beatitude…“

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Let's go back to the beginning:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

 

What we have here is the simplest expression of the Buddhist (or even (apparently unpopular) "non-dual") path.

Either you don’t understand or you’re being snide about non-duality being “apparently unpopular” since non-duality has the most powerful lobby group on this forum and is of course the most popular opinion hands down. Would it be so hard to just be honest and direct? 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

What is nirodha (cessation) the end of suffering? It isn't something difficult, impossible to understand, or unobtainable... it is fact familiar to everyone. What is it? It is emptiness, which is not some unobtainable, multi-lifetime goal, but instead something we all experience many times a day, though not in full realization. It isn't "dwelling", "contemplating", "desiring", or "abandoning". It doesn't require any tricks, difficult or ornate technical feats, or years long practices, it can be seen and pointed out by any suitable teacher. 

 

Any time you have been staring at a beautiful vista and your mind went quiet you have experienced it. How do you know if you are, or have experienced it? Ask yourself if there was suffering, or "self" in the moment of your perception, or was there just a simple joy and great stillness. 

 

How do you stop smoking? You stop putting cigarettes in your mouth. How do you stop dukka (suffering)? Let go of your craving, desire and attachment - learn to cultivate and rest in cessation.

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

Anyway , back to the kundalini .

 

Its not a metaphor at all , we all actually have a big snake curled up inside us  . It masquerades  as part of the large intestine so as to hide during x-rays .

 

The correct yogic procedure to activate it is to calmly sit in lotus , while holding a live rat with your teeth .

 

Now .... come on !   Who is gonna say I have no experience and read that one in a book ?

Isn’t this a bit of a straw man argument? You create a scenario that I never said and proceed to ridicule the entire concept. I remember I was first ridiculed by you when I first complained about @Jeff’s energy intrusions on me many years ago, I recall other people copied you then as well. 

14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

 

You seem to think that my post about the central channel amounts to nothing more than parroting the views of others and that I have no direct experience of what I speak.  I suspect that the larger Bum community won´t have much to say about your opinion one way or the other, but, speaking personally, I find it deeply unpopular.

I have no doubt that you place attention on ‘the central channel’, and I’m more than willing to believe that it is calming.  But it’s true I would have a hard time believing you were drawn to this particular practice because you intuited that the subtle central channel existed, and independently of all other sources you chose to place your attention there. If I’m wrong in the above assumptions, my apologies. 
 

I also understand that my post made you feel bad, but I was responding to your (I believe dangerous) over-simplification of a very complex system, based on your view that nondual realisation is equivalent to kundalini activation. 
 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

 

Borrowing broad concepts which originally and largely come from Hinduism's schools is one thing...but as far as assumptions (sounding like a dismissal?) per assumptions, well I'd caution about making them,  being that certain schools and lineages  have been practicing and developing associated yoga's for thousands of years which have fostered true and rare Kundalini masters and knowers of the Self which is beyond any form including the subtle body.  (and I'm not guessing on that) 

I find much of the general information about kundalini and the three main nadi’s to be worthwhile, but as you yourself said, they don’t agree on everything, and I’m certainly not going to believe one teaching over another until I have a very good reason to side with any particular opinion. In the meantime, post as much as you please from Saivite schools and sects, I’m not going to, after all, this thread is titled unpopular opinions, not popular scripture isn’t it? 

6 hours ago, Taomeow said:

From the taoist perspective, the central channel can be found or placed anywhere where there's yin-yang interplay and transformation.  It's the "mysterious border" between yin and yang, and it's not anatomical nor material and not even "spiritual."  What it is is in a certain sense virtual -- a virtual field of potential manifestations.  If you look at the taijitu, it's that S-shaped demarcation line between yin and yang which both divides and unites them and sort of doesn't exist -- it's the interplay and co-creation of yin and yang that make it appear.  No such interplay takes place in wuji where there's no duality.  The reason there's no duality is that nothing happens there.  Once something happens -- anything at all -- bye wuji, bye nonduality, hello manifestations.   

 

So, the central channel can be this division-unification between, e.g., the left side of the body and the right side, the left brain and the right, but also the upper and the lower body, or the back and the front, or the outer and the inner, and so on.  Moreover, it can be the border between the body and the mind, between jing and qi, qi and shen, between life and death, between gods and mortals, and so on.  If you place your unwavering awareness on any of those division-unification borders, that's where your central channel will be.

  

When referring to Shiva/Shakti consciousness specifically, the central channel as their optimal ground of being does have a very specific location, and is only identified as the subtle energy body. When referring to nonduality the playing field is wide open. 

7 hours ago, S:C said:

 

don’t we need both to live functionally? 
 

I think we can clearly function without ‘higher’ consciousness being operational, but in that case I don’t think we’re functioning at our full potential. 

7 hours ago, S:C said:

 

designed means there is a creator with intention? 
 

I mean the ‘hardware’ exists, kundalini is there, but sleeping, the central channel exists but is unused, Shiva exists but remains unheard most of the time. Why that system exists waiting to be activated I have no idea, but I’d bet the house on it that it does exist. 

7 hours ago, S:C said:

 

why does it work and why works it in the central channel, what is the difference to the mundane? 

 

potential is bound to decrease at some point… does it rise ever again?

I don’t really understand your questions here, except to say that higher consciousness is logically not equivalent to mundane consciousness, and if higher consciousness is activated properly, I don’t see that it would be bound to decrease. 

7 hours ago, S:C said:

always questions, never answers, sorry.

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

 

Btw, as far as I know to Saivites Shiva (or Siva) is Supreme Being or Brahman,   with  Brahman being beyond all categories which then comes into manifestation as first Shakti of the purest energy and the dance of that energy represented by Lord Nataraja, along with or through Lords Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.   Btw Saivites have several major schools or sects and they don't agree on everything although they do agree on a great many of things.  I think most any discussion about Shiva should include such credit to & some basic  info about Saivites... which one could then do their own verification and research on. 

 

Im using the broad concepts of Shiva and Shakti because they’re useful, but I’m not using the associated assumptions from any particular school or sect. 

11 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Here is my unpopular opinion:

Kundalini is defined differently in different traditions, which causes confusion when the subject cones up.

Some of the Yoga upanishads seems to have similar descriptions, which differs from the more usually available versions. 

Source: The Yoga darshana upanishad and the Yoga kundalini upanishad.

 

Yes, let’s say the subject is not fully comprehended by all the different traditions, and there is a great amount of confusion because each tradition likes to believe it has the full truth. The best we can do is explore the system ourselves, though this can easily backfire if the mundane mind is running the show. Best IMO would be to be led by ‘Shiva’ from the start, that’s the only guaranteed way to not go wrong. 

11 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Subtle body work and nondual traditions need not be at odds. The central channel is the anatomical seat of nondual consciousness in the human body, imo.

Maybe the central channel is the anatomical seat of nondual consciousness, or maybe it’s a a particular section of the central channel like the crown, or below the crown, or above the crown, or maybe it’s not related to the central channel at all, but until that potential is realised it’s really just guesswork. You might be right, but that would just be by chance, until you know. 

11 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

  Bringing our awareness to the center, we become centered.

If some mental conditioning is being played out, or some emotional upheaval, I can imagine shifting awareness to some perceived centre might feel like a relief, but the conditioning and the emotional storms will continue to arise unless they’re attended to directly, which is not the work of the central channel. 

11 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Resting our awareness in the center continually, we enlighten. 
 

Resting awareness in the centre continually, we bypass emotional and mental issues, but they and the ego which defends against them  don’t just disappear of their own accord. 

11 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

After enlightenment, there is no need to direct attention anywhere because everywhere is experienced as the center. 

This is your opinion garnered from literature or discussion, not your experience, so like your first assumption you may be entirely correct or you may have missed the mark entirely. 

6 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

 

I thought that was a method of safely raising it through the central channel. 

Ask a nondualist if they think their awakening/realisation/enlightenment is a function of kundalini or has got anything to do with kundalini. 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

 

What then is kundalini and what is 'Shiva'?

 

Kundalini/Shakti is a level of consciousness that is designed to operate within the central channel, she is the Yin aspect of the central channel if you like, in ‘sleep’ mode because of a lack of energy flow in the side channels. Optimally Kundalini/Shakti consciousness dwells in the upper part of the central channel, though asleep she is in the lower part of the central channel. What her role is in the upper part of the central channel I can only guess at at the moment, but I do suspect part of her role is as intermediary between higher knowledge and consciousness and mundane consciousness. Shiva is her Yang counterpart, Shiva consciousness ‘knows’ and guides Shakti consciousness, opens subtle energy doors for her when the time is right, protects her as she travels upwards, and continually points out the way she has to go. Without his actions and directing from above, Kundalini/Shakti will go the wrong way, she will either be stuck on her travels upward or she will take what appear to be shortcuts that are in fact dead ends. It’s a very delicate dance that the two consciousnesses engage in, that can be all too easily disrupted by our mundane mind level consciousness. If circumstances allow them to actualise their potential then their level of consciousness will be available to us, of course I don’t know what that level of consciousness entails at this point in time. 

Here’s my current unpopular opinion. The actual point of spirituality is the activation of kundalini, though to qualify this, its activation needs to be in the central channel, and facilitated by kundalini’s subtle energy/consciousness opposite, which can be identified as ‘Shiva’. I suspect that kundalini inappropriately activated via ‘forceful’ methods, of which there are many, causes kundalini to travel up a side subtle channel, and I further suspect that this cannot be rectified, that is, it cannot then be made to travel up the central channel, except in extraordinary circumstances, such as sending kundalini back to sleep and doing the initial work necessary before raising kundalini consciousness correctly. Travelling up a side channel will inevitably lead to relatively useless side road achievements, inevitably degrading the perceived value of kundalini. 
 

In a community obsessed with emptiness and non-doing and nonduality, this must surely be in the running for most unpopular opinion. 

On 5/3/2024 at 6:07 AM, S:C said:

Mind can and will find - in my opinion- many frames of reference and will use all your known  and unconscious inferences, draw from all (cultural) backgrounds, to make sense of something a bit like it was already mentioned in the thread about another dream interpretation recently. 
 

So every bum you ask will bring their own subjective „baggage“ and background into the interpretation.

For me it’s too many unconnected scenes in your dream to see a consistent story. However:

Were the scenes connected in your opinion and by what? 

Moreover what’s important is what you found interesting: the pieces of fruit of the man and yours and the then lacking trunk of the tree. 

After a few days I am thinking that the tree trunk is the central channel, it disappears because my consciousness doesn’t need to travel downwards again once it’s arrived here, like that path no longer even exists so there’s not even an option to descend. I recall a dream someone told me where they were driving and crashed into the trunk of a tree and died. I think his dream was showing him that his method of entering the central channel was doomed to failure, as he was ‘playing’ with energy at the time. 

Quote

 

What could the fruit be a symbol of? You were surprised that there was only one, maybe one is enough already? (Enough of what is your interpretation.) You were expecting more then one.
 

I honestly think the fruit was “fruit of the tree of knowledge”, and only one piece because too much new knowledge would overwhelm a person. I imagine sitting at the dining table the fruit will drop onto the table at the right time, in the right amount. I’m thinking today that the dining table might be the chakra below the crown. 

Quote

Were all persons involved parts of yourself to conjoin? Or were they „really“ different persons albeit in a different perception mode?

Yes all persons were parts of myself, in the koshas model one identifies with various levels of the self over time, progressively identifying with a deeper part of the self until one arrives at the final layer, the true self. In my dream I believe I am identifying with kundalini consciousness and how that consciousness relates to the mundane mental level. Whether kundalini consciousness is the true self or the true self is deeper than that I will have to wait and see, as there is a lot to digest still at the kundalini consciousness level. 

Quote

 

You speak of a different kind of consciousness, all partaking, if I understand correctly. You also took reference of the tree to a human body. The lacking trunk (symbolizing personal energetic source) might refer to a different (more) ‚impersonal‘ source of energy and mind matter, unrooted in a subject, so to speak.

 

To your question:am I mapping my experience onto a Christian format, or is this the reality of the subtle energy system.

To me, the allegory works just as well with the daoist concepts, if you abstract it to some degree. (What’s the fruit in that modell.. a yes…) So I‘d tend to favor your latter option, but as so far as you experience your subtle energy system and that of others in your view. Cannot speak for any objectivity.

I think there is an objectively true subtle energy system that operates to a greater or lesser degree in everyone. I do aim to understand that system, for now my dreams give me some information, I can only hope that when my dream gets played out in real time within myself that information about the subtle energy system, it’s setup and operation, will become more direct. 

On 5/3/2024 at 5:58 AM, Mark Foote said:

What a profound dream!

I follow a progression like this in my sitting, for awhile now.  I drive, I'm at a tree with a trunk, there's a man and woman in the active and receptive aspects of my effort, there's a taste of action by virtue of the placement of attention rather than volition, then there's no trunk but just a recognition of something that I have already partaken of.

 

Interesting, is this a scenario you have consciously created or did the scene just happen? 

On 5/3/2024 at 5:58 AM, Mark Foote said:

Forgive me if you've already read this, from a post of mine last fall:
 

Although attention can be directed to the movement of breath, necessity in the movement of breath can also direct attention, as I wrote previously:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

There’s a frailty in the structure of the lower spine, and the movement of breath can place the point of awareness in such a fashion as to engage a mechanism of support for the spine, often in stages.

 

... Foyan (12th-century Chinese Zen teacher) spoke of “looking for a donkey riding on the donkey”.  The degree of “self-surrender” required to allow necessity to place attention, and the presence of mind required to “lay hold” as the placement of attention shifts, make the conscious experience of “riding the donkey” elusive. (Shunryu) Suzuki provided an analogy:
 

If you are going to fall, you know, from, for instance, from the tree to the ground, the moment you, you know, leave the branch you lose your function of the body. But if you don’t, you know, there is a pretty long time before you reach to the ground. And there may be some branch, you know. So you can catch the branch or you can do something. But because you lose function of your body, you know [laughs], before you reach to the ground, you may lose your conscious[ness].

 

(“To Actually Practice Selflessness”, August Sesshin Lecture Wednesday, August 6, 1969, San Francisco; “fell” corrected to “fall”; transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

Suzuki offered the analogy in response to the travails of his students, who were experiencing pain in their legs sitting cross-legged on the floor.  In his analogy, he suggested the possibility of an escape from pain through a presence of mind with the function of the body.
 

The difficulty is that most people will lose consciousness before they cede activity to the location of attention–they lose the presence of mind with the placement of attention, because they can’t believe that action in the body is possible without “doing something”:
 

... When a presence of mind is retained as the placement of attention shifts, then the natural tendency toward the free placement of attention can draw out thought initial and sustained, and bring on the stages of concentration:

 

… there is no need to depend on teaching. But the most important thing is to practice and realize our true nature… [laughs]. This is, you know, Zen.

 

(Shunryu Suzuki, Tassajara 68-07-24 transcript from shunryusuzuki.com)

 

 

(Shunryu Suzuki on Shikantaza and the Theravadin Stages)

So, I had a dream about this topic which I’d like to share. “I” was driving along, and there was a bit of water on the road so I started to fishtail from left to right repeatedly, always just managing to stay in control. I was then sitting in a University lecture hall and I noticed on the stage where the lecturer was that there was a tree. In the next scene I was barging through a couple to get somewhere, and then I was under the tree and taking a piece of fruit and eating it. The fruit looked like a baby squash and had the texture of dates and tasted a bit like a fig, and it had a small bunch of spinach leaves growing downwards from its underside. I felt a bit ashamed that I had barged through the couple so I offered a piece of fruit to the man and he accepted it and ate it. 
 

Then the trunk of the tree disappeared and only the branches and leaves and fruit remained, suspended in the air. I sat  at a dining table under the suspended crown of the tree thinking I would like to get more fruit, but that it would be too uncouth to stand up on the table, so I just sat there waiting and the dream ended. 
 

I do think this dream refers to kundalini by the action of my driving, the constant fishtailing which is the same motion as a snake, and the fact that I was driving the car suggests to me that “i” was in the role of kundalini consciousness. The couple that I barged through to me were the subtle energy channels on the side of the central channel where they cross, and my offering the fruit to the man because I was a bit ashamed (immense overtones of the Adam Eve story here) in my interpretation was offering the fruit of the tree of knowledge to the masculine subtle energy channel which I equate with the mental plane - this image is where I get the idea that the mundane mental level is brought along on the ‘spiritual’ journey. 
 

I found it interesting that I only had one piece of fruit and the man only had one also, I also found it interesting that the trunk disappeared and that I was left waiting at the dining table underneath “the crown” for more. 
 

A fundamental question must be am I mapping my experience onto a Christian format, or is this the reality of the subtle energy system. I strongly think the latter myself. Bums thoughts welcome. 
 

15 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

The thing is for me - the allure of the dark side is strong.  I guess for many its just disturbing and something they would like to stay away from - but I feel the opposite.  For me the ordinary world of the day/light is oppressive.  If I gave in to my natural tendency I would stray deep into the dark.  Maybe that's why I like Ancient Egypt and tombs and wotnot, I don't know.  But what i found was that the allure carries with it an enchantment of 'power' which is illusory.  It has power in its own realm - but brought back into the daylight it is nothing.  So maybe I am a bit weird.  But this is what I was talking about.

 

 

With inexplicable tendencies like this I often wonder if a past life is at play, where some ‘power’ was gained but not the full circuit so to speak. Perhaps you sat holed up in a dark cave, or unclothed in a graveyard eating human flesh, etc etc, but this is not what I mean by the shadow self. In your case I agree this is not the way to go, and I see (I think) what you might mean about the enchantment of an illusory power. 
 

To me the shadow self holds pain and it is hard to approach, it holds no allure as pain is not alluring generally speaking, but it must be grappled with. Thanks for explaining what you meant 🙂