jschultz

What is "spiritual" though beyond just another word, definition, and a belief? Isn't it not possible to not simply be? (Even as nothing) The reason I say this is because too often anything, thoughts/ideas/beliefs, considered to be spiritual, religious, or metaphysical are then just grouped in another division of things and become another attachment which then conflicts with thoughts/beliefs/ideas that are considered to be "opposite". Many scientists seem to completely ignore anything that anyone considers to be spiritual/religious/metaphysical outright, and without any investigation or contemplation simply because of that definition, no matter how correct, "observable", or "real" it may actually be. The same can be said of those who consider themselves to be spiritual and their views towards science even though some of the "conclusions" or "observations" may actually be the same. By becoming attached to any word, term, or definition negatively or positively we can sometimes focus exclusively on it, or dismiss it's "opposite", whereas if we were simply open without choosing a "view" (word/definition/belief) we'd have all of everything available to us. Enlightenment - In my own current perception I would personally say it's when you come to the realization that you are infinitely everything. Knowing/not-knowing, being/not-being, all light/all dark, etc, everything. You are always infinitely alone in your perspective, and infinitely surrounded by yourself in infinite "other" perspectives that are also you. You are me, I am you, right now with unique (because there is only one everything) perspectives and "experiences". The one infinite everything, dreaming infinite dreams of "itself"/"yourself"/"myself" that "Is" individually and inseparably us.

Good luck to your Mom as well, and as far as dreams go I'm not sure but I may have started on my own path from one. I had a dream I won't go into detail about (not afraid it's just long) but the number 137 came up in it. I learned that it's an important number in theoretical physics and is a part of the fine structure constant, also called alpha. My brother died in 2002 but was a physicist, loved Richard Feynmann and Richard considered alpha to be extremely significant. A few days before I learned what it was to "be" I saw a youtube video that made me focus more. Then last night after meditating a bit I came up with this, which may mean absolutely nothing (hehe) in physics or mathematics but I found it beautiful. I started with a dot representing "Is", or infinity, or whatever you'd like to call everything. Then a dot to either side to represent each side of "opposites", or the beginings of duality. Then I connected them with circles which created essentially the yin/yang, or the greek symbol for infinity. When I created squares within each circle, with all the points connecting to "is", I realized there was an interesting coincidence when each "dot" was counted. At the top, with "is" there is 1, then the beginnings of duality had created 3 dots. Then in the third which I thought of as the universe we live in, 3d duality in a sense, I had created 7 dots. Thus creating 137, not as a sum of total numbers, but as steps of creation in a sense. I could visually see the fine structure constant with 1 over, or "divided" in a sense, by 137. http://hethatwatches.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/diagram_infinity.png I haven't held onto it too strongly, and I am aware that very often you can see the numbers you want to see virtually anywhere and in anything, but I felt it was very interesting and wanted to share it and the drawing with folks here. Any math or physics folks here with any thoughts on it?

Hehe, and I've just learned more from myself and my ego by my last sentence. "to do nothing and lie on the beach doing nothing on vacation now." compared to saying "to lie on the beach doing nothing on vacation now"

Thank you for the clarification, I understand what you mean, and I'm "new" to being. I can see how it might be possible in a sense to deny "enlightenment" by thinking that you were "done". Though personally I find it, even in my ego now, essentially unthinkable and impossible to ever be able to go "back", or as you put it to do nothing and lie on the beach doing nothing on vacation now.

What is enlightenment though, it's simply a description for something that cannot be defined the same as a satori is a definition, the same as any other "level" (greater or lesser) of being would be simply a definiton. "Infinity" or "is" (still just definitions) I would say is not a conditioned phenomena because "it" isn't able to be defined or divided (greater or lesser). I would personally say, while thinking here and typing, that there is no end to learning and growing while living here in this "perceived" life that is able to type and think. While typing and thinking I am creating distinctions and perceiving within this "reality" though, which "we" that are reading this are a part of. How do you get greater levels of being from something that is "everything"? Personally that's why I don't understand why so many beliefs create limitations and "levels" that need to be achieved. A good teacher, or master I would consider personally to be someone who can simply "be" at all times instead of falling back into living with distinctions/divisions/separations. To not get "stuck" or hold onto those thoughts/divisions/distinctions/etc. In that sense I personally could see how there may be "levels" of "being" in a sense. Experiencing "is" and "being" is not a conditioned phenomena and there is no "lesser" or "greater" that can be attached to it. In that sense I would agree that any experience that transcends duality could be a conditioned phenomena and not enlightenment, but once you have known what it is to "be" there is no going back, but there can still be work to be done to overcome the previous "ego" definition/division/duality based way of living. Is that what you mean by, "If you experience something and then it ends, it wasn't enlightenment" and "can't imagine how there could be anything greater, doesn't mean that it really was enlightenment"?

It's not anything to achieve or as a path to follow or get to either. I think the reason it's so hard to "find" or "achieve" is because you have to let go of what you think of as you to truly live in the moment and just "be". Everything exists in the moment, all possibilities, etc, and everything including all that you consider you to be is all from the same infinity with no divisions/duality/descriptions/etc. There is no light or dark, or good or bad, there is just "is" (but even that small word is, is an attempt to define/describe something that is everything including the thought/word "is"). We think of concepts/ideas/beliefs as real when they really aren't. We think of a political party as being real, but it's just a concept, a way to think, and a belief but it's not alive and it's not "really real". It's impossible to imagine "is" because by doing so you are classifying "it" as a thing, or a place, and infinity cannot be divided. As humans we see our lives, and we're taught to learn and grow, by seeing separations, divisions, and distinctions (this and that) and it's how we think and experience most of our lives. As individuals separate from others and from our environment. Only by being completely open (minded/hearted/etc) and giving up that "individuality" and all divisions/distinctions can we hope to simply "be". There's no place to go because you're already there, it's just so hard to "be" because we learn by creating distinctions and naming things, that the thing outside is called a "tree", that we "breath" "air", and that separation and individuality is everywhere. We're taught to take a stand or choose sides, that other "individuals" that don't believe what we do or think the way we think are "bad" or "stupid" because our beliefs and choices are the "best". I have "experienced" enlightenment myself, and I think this person does a good job of describing "it". http://paidtoexist.com/enlightenment-is-overrated/ (That is not "me" though I feel much the same about enlightenment as "he" does) I do hope those here hoping to experience "being" in their lifetime are able to. Having lived in an extremely anxiety and depressive life for many years myself previously, it has been life changing and wonderful for me. I do think people that have experienced being, and decide to teach/help others, can likely be very helpful in getting others to experience being as well. I think it's also very important to know though that only you can "be" from your perspective/awareness/consciousness, no one can take you there or "show" it to you or describe it fully. I personally had no teacher, belief system, or steps that I followed.

I can only speak from my personal perspective and for no one else, but I would consider the room I sit in typing this, the windows and walls, the music I'm listening to, my body/mind/spirit, to be a part of what I would call "real reality" because it is in a sense very real to me, and to the other observers here as well. I would also agree that, from what I've learned of quantum physics, my experience, etc, that none of it really exists either and there is only energy. An awareness, me, can perceive to touch them, hear them, and see them. In the past at some point, another awareness did the same. Someone built the walls, someone built the windows, someone assembled my chair, my computer, made the music I'm listening to, etc. Those things became a part of "real reality" through the actions and observations of someone else, and made them real here. If I lived in a vacuum with purely energy then there would be no wall, windows, music, etc, but I don't. There are many observers here now, as well as myself. I also feel I'm part of a whole where anything is possible and everything is of a whole that cannot be described, defined, or divided, but from this point of observation I am not alone and all of my fellow observers also define this "real reality". I can call this "real reality", "reality", "wow" or define it however I like but to me in this life/existence it just "is". If I think I can stick my hand through wall which I "think" is just empty space I can break what I think and feel is my physical hand. If I imagine putting my hand through the wall I can do that, but I'm not thinking about my body. My perception may exist here in this "universe", and my body/mind/spirit (however I chose to break down the whole that is me to describe it) right now is my center of "it" with everything existing "outside" of me, but I am still connected to it all including all the other observers so it is a collective reality, this "real reality". If I sit with my friend in this room, no matter how much we'd like to think otherwise, we'd both potentially break our hands trying to stick them through the mostly empty space that is the wall because it's already been observed and defined. Regarding Jesus, Buddha, monks, you or anyone else for that matter I cannot ever speak for them, nor can I limit them. Is it possible that Jesus walked on water, sure why not I think. Is it also possible that Jesus didn't walk on water and that is folklore, sure why not I think. I can't possibly know for sure one way or the other, same as monks having swords or bullets pass through them. I think that would be super freeking cool, but I can't force my "hopeful reality" or "imagined reality" on anything or anyone either. None of that exists in my "real reality" anyway, I'm just thinking and imagining things but that doesn't affect me sitting here typing or the birds chirping outside. My own reality just a few weeks ago was vastly, infinitely smaller, then it is today. I did define my own reality and it was a very painful one, but at the time I could not see outside of it so it was VERY real to me, and I could not see my way out of it because I wasn't open minded, open hearted, and living wholey in the moment. My personal reality changed exponentially in the way that I perceive this "real reality", as well as my reality within my mind, but this keyboard is still here, the walls and the chair and the computer are still here. I'm free to think and imagine as I like, but that thinking and imagining is only a part of the whole that is me and all that is around me. In a way my thinking and imagining could be defined as an "apparent reality". If I chose not to flee from someone wishing to kill me it would be my choice because no one can make it for me. To someone else it may seem like a foolish thing to do, but if I know that death is just another change then it might not bother me that much. Maybe I see that the sword or the bullet does pass through me, and that death is an "apparent reality".

I think all these things are one in the same when I think about "me". I don't think there is any separation at all and that is maybe one of the reasons life can become and seem so complicated. Everything that is me, makes up who I am. (There is also no "me" because there is no separation anywhere, but that is an impossible thing to "think" about) I think for every person/awareness/perspective the only normal there is specific to them. As an example in North Korea, being and thinking "normal" in that society is likely much different then it would be in, say, Saudi Arabia or America. When I classify different parts of the "whole" I consider to be me, I can create separations, divisions, and conflicts within myself. If I put Intuition vs. Logic I create a conflict in that thought itself, within myself and my mind, and it reads as such as well. It can be hard not to choose sides and create divisions in my thoughts and my observations and sometimes they can also be very useful. Hot vs cold, dangerous vs safe, etc. (Those are fairly easy) I see this way of thinking in divisions as more of a tool then anything else. I don't have to choose any way of thought or make a stand on any one idea, thought, or way of being and by not seeing them as separate I can more fully use them all however I want. As an example, if I consider myself to be logical I am defining myself as being that way and I can create conflict in myself if I wish to explore my spirituality. If I consider myself to be intuitive I may exclude non intuitive thoughts that could also be useful. When I think in absolutes in any particular way I deny myself the "opposite" way of thinking. Personally right now when I "see" a thought or get an intuition I also look at my life and life in the physical world around me and decide if I want to hold onto it and think about it a little longer, use it and move on, or discard it. Using "it" or discarding it is fairly easy, but I find that the hardest thing is to hold onto it and think about it longer because the longer I do the more "real" that thought or intuition gets on it's own. I can make that thought or intuition more "real" in a sense then it otherwise would have been had I just accepted it and decided what to do with it. I think the same goes with other things within me like anger, sorrow, happiness, etc. When I'm not open minded and open hearted and living in the moment I'm holding onto something that may need to just be accepted, and used or discarded. Often when I am open I can see more easily where that thought or emotion came from as well as why.

First of all, hello everyone my name is Jon and I want to share, explore, and learn from an experience I had recently, and I've found this website. Several days ago I experienced what by all definitions/explanations (though any/all attempts to define/explain "it"/"existence" fail completely) was enlightenment. Some history may be useful to describe my path to this experience of "being" though. I had studied Aikido years ago and was introduced to Buddhism, Taoism, metaphysics, etc, and meditation. I had dismissed the spiritual pursuit for the most part and focused more on the physical exercise and the fluidness of that martial art. I did practice what can be described as mindless as opposed to mindfull meditation at the time and did enjoy how it seemed to "recharge my batteries". I stopped doing this around the age of 21 because I felt I was "too busy" to continue doing it and that it wasn't really helping me do or achieve anything. I'm 40 now. During that time up until last week I suffered from what was diagnosed as Social Anxiety/Phobia. In many ways it was a spiraling and exponentially growing anxiety and fear that after several family deaths (all but one close family member), an extremely stressful job with many years of 24/7 on-call duties, and extreme self "medication" with alcohol brought me to a level of dispair that was as close to the complete meaning of unbearable that I could imagine at the time. I had lost all of my friends save one, and communicated with only one other person (a cousin) via email, and quit my job. I was also trying to escape my life and pain intellectually by researching politics, finance, science, and losing myself in computer games to escape my painful reality. A few days before I had this wonderful and life changing explosion of perspective/awareness I couldn't look at the terrible things we do to each other through our conflicting beliefs, wars, and greed, etc, anymore and I realized I was only adding to my pain and fear by trying to avoid it and was essentially scrubbing myself with what I percieved to be others pain as well. I started reseaching religions, beliefs, spirituality, the occult, etc, but I went into this research with as open a mind as I could and tried not to get myself stuck in any structures, steps, dogma's, etc. On "that" day I was watching a really interesting video on youtube that was a visualization of the mandlebrot set, which is essentially a visualization of mathematic fractals that can continue on forever because it's simply a never ending division. When it ended I decided to really try mindful meditation, or at least what I thought that was. I tried to calm my mind, I kept my eyes open but didn't focus them, I listened, and I tried to feel my body and skin and breath, and I tried to experience all these senses at the same time. Then "it" or "is" happened and I just knew what it was to be completely alive with no judgements, thoughts, beliefs, etc. To simply "be". I won't try to describe that complete wholeness/loss because it can't be done, but I can explain how I've changed. I have escaped my crushing fear and anxiety and my anger and helplessness. It still bubbles up in my mind but I know where it is coming from and I am able to let it go easily. I know what it's like to understand in a way any perspective or point of view because I understand there is no end to them. I'm starting to come back to a calm state of being again, but in many ways it was just so exciting to be free. I even understood that my excitement didn't "really" exist but I was having so much damn fun I did hold onto those moments for a while before letting those go as well. I tried several times to describe this "revelation" over the last week in my excitement, but I know that it will be forever impossible to do that. One way that I think is somewhat "close" is, infinite energy and infinite entropy combined in the same whole that is itself infinite. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when I try to imagine it so I think that's also why I like that description more then the others I've tried to come up with. What I'm curious about now I suppose is though I know I don't have to "do" anything I know I want to help other human beings, or consciousnesses, of this "infinite" find this peace and freedom as well. I'm curious about ways I can do this. My previous existence of extreme isolation leaves me with few references on interaction with what I now know to be my fellow human "awarenesses". I also know it won't be easy because my "old/previous" ego/mind really likes to bombard me with fearful thoughts and anxieties when I step into territory that would have been impossible to me just a week ago. I'm not afraid of doing that, and it has not stopped me from reconnecting with extended family or from simply getting out of the house like it used to. Hehe, am I answering my own question? I wish for whomever may read this peace, freedom and love. I know that by trying to attach any words to existence is to attempt to define it which is impossible, but I (my ego/mind) can't help but say right now that it has been wonderful and right now I wish it for us all, including the infinite. Jon

Thanks GrandmasterP.

Heya Silent, the experience was wonderful and the freedom from all that pain was exciting. I'm in a more relaxed place now, and I'm learning that I still need to learn and grow this new "perspective" that is me. Just being more open minded, open hearted, and being. I know now that I still have quite a lot of "baggage" in my mind to come to terms with and let go as well, but being able to actually "see" it, and then to be able to actually let it go I know will help me do just that. Thank you. Thank you as well Chang, good luck to you too and I'll read the posts as well as the rules.