Taoist Texts

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Posts posted by Taoist Texts


  1. 1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

    And have you interviewed and tested each one who read it TT?

    thats not the point. the point is you and me both cannot name any one who has achieved anything out of many thousands who read it

    1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

    Define achieved

    oh never you mind. that ugly word is for the real world only

    • Like 1

  2. 12 hours ago, Cobie said:

    Could you please post your current translation of the characters of the first line? 
    (I posted my latest version in the post above).

    Sure why not. Of course the official translation is meaningless and thats why they never explain what the heck it means and why. But so will remain mine transl if i dont explain it first. Here goes:

    1st of all the line is the chinese version of  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logos#Origins_of_the_term; Philo distinguished between logos prophorikos ("the uttered word") and the logos endiathetos ("the word remaining within").[11]

    2nd it is the older version of the Yijing's formula for the dao: in one of the appendixes to the Book of Changes (Yijing), "one Yin and one Yang, this is the Dao."

    3rd the point of this line (same as with the greeks) is to explain the origin of the world whereas the world IS speech, name , dao, logos

     

    so the line is

    there  is  spoken speech  道可/there  is unspoken speech 道非/ together they are the permanent dao 常道。

    there are  named names  名可/ there are unnamed names 名非/ together they are the permanent name 常名。 


  3. 3 hours ago, idiot_stimpy said:

    What advice or tips would you give in order to help someone spot a fake master?/Someone saying they're enlightened when they really are not?\Is there anyway to actually tell?

    easy-peasy. if he gives you whatever it is you paid for then he is "enlightened". and if you feel that you have been ripped off then he is fake.  easy, right?

    44 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

    I knew because I felt the results of my time with him in my body.   

    to wit

     

    • Like 2

  4. 9 hours ago, Cobie said:

    Like the first line of the DDJ. If the Dao cannot be expressed, then “who would write a useless book”!

    i donno why ppl say that. the first line says exactly the opposite: dao can be expressed. funny peeps;)

    • Thanks 1

  5. 6 hours ago, Cobie said:


    @Taoist Texts do you think this is true? 

    first of all it does not matter. with or without XXX GF is doable only for a select few not an average reader. Secondly, saying that a book is useless without XXX is bafflingly unreasonable. who would write a useless book? who would read a useless book?...idk ppl just keep saying the damnedest things...

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  6. 1 hour ago, snowymountains said:

    was it him that asked the spirits how to make the elixir, or the spirits gave to him the recipe, without him asking,

    there is neither of these occurrences in his extant diary. In fact the elixir is mentioned two times only: 1)  the spirit says to him 'when the elixir is swallowed you first  go to the Penglai paradise' 2) in his papers there was an unattributed elixir recipe with no other pertinent info.

     

    15 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

    the recipe for the elixir was found, it just isn’t in Bokenkamp’s selection. 

    just in case you guys are curious what the recipe was (AI transl.)

    Quote

     

    The Purple Pill of Zhou Zhiyang's Nine Truths Jade Stream Elixir Recipe:  

    Nine-stalked purple conch mushrooms and aubretia moss, each weighing one pound, [originate from southern Fujian, and there are also varieties found in northern Min.].

    Two pounds of cinnabar and jade decoction. [Similarly, there are sources in southern Fujian as well.]

    The two ingredients are finely chopped, and the moss is soaked in half a pound of jade decoction for a night, burying yin within yang and removing three inches of yang. They are then placed in the ground, one foot deep, in an earthenware container large enough to hold four pounds. A ceramic lid is placed on top and sealed with wax. Two inches of soil are added above it. The burial is to take place at noon today, and the contents are to be unearthed at noon tomorrow. Carry them southward and place them ten paces from your residence, where you will rest your head on a pillow. At noon tomorrow, boil the remaining pound of jade decoction in a copper pot. Ensure the fire is evenly distributed beneath the pot and does not let the flames touch the edges. When the liquid has reached three boils, add more fire at a height of about five inches, using tussock as fuel. Let the remaining decoction simmer until it has evaporated by one pound. Seal the juice for three days. Upon opening it, you should see a violet glow shining through, replacing the need for a lamp at night. This completes the preparation. If you wish to wrap the medicine in paper and tightly secure it, it will stop flowing water, lock a room so that a thousand people cannot open it, deter a group of bandits from moving, make mountains and people immobile, and if you want to ascend to heaven quickly, you can consume it and die instantly; if you wish to live a long life on earth, take it moderately, and you will still become an immortal. Do not reveal this to others, only know it in your heart and consume it in private. If others find out, they will only deprive you of this elixir.

     

     

    • Like 1

  7. 9 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

    At the end of the preface there is a note (I’m not sure if it’s by Tao or a later copyist)

    it is by Tao himself, in the body of his original preface. It only appears to be at the end of the translation because a large chunk of the original coming after the 'note' was omitted by the translator.

    https://www.zhonghuadiancang.com/xuanxuewushu/zhoushimingtongji/29412.html

    10 hours ago, Cobie said:

    (I don’t have time to read all that’s on the link) could you please tell me why it is thought that “Ziliang successfully transcended”?

    because he documented his preparatory communication with the spirits, departed at the previously set time, shed his body serenely, with no symptoms of poisoning, and was unavailable in Tao's dreams

     

    9 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

    I perceive some tension in Daoism between the vision of transcendence- as seen in Zhuangzi, poetry, and wonder tales like the Soushen Ji- as one of carefree freedom, cloud-walking, etc, versus this heavenly paper pusherdom.

    the difference is not due the structure of the otherworld per se, but rather due to the individual merit. the practicers with high individual merit get to be independent 'retirees' in the otherworld, versus the ordinary mortals who have to go through the process to be later conscripted as minor heavenly officials. It was the same in  ZZ's time as well


  8. 10 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

    It can found for free download online but I won't link it in case that is frowned upon by admins.

    a part of the story can be read legit on googlebooks

    10 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

    Ziliang's visions at face value and does not question that his disciple achieved what he sought; on the other, he seems less than exultant:

     

    I am full of remorse about this affair. I regret that I did not earlier look into Ziliang's activities. His letter causes me to blame myself.

    one would think that the blame and remorse is about not stopping Ziliang from suicide, if it can be even called such. but it cannot be so because Ziliang successfully transcended. Actually the remorse is about failing to learn Ziliang's transcendence method.

    image.png.90cab0eea7048c46e7b4b92a5e0e9b90.png

     

    11 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

    In my prior, very cursory reading about Daoist alchemical elixirs, I was led to believe that the poisonings recorded throughout history were accidents but it seems in this case it was very much not so and I wonder how often such a practice was taken. Evidently from Ziliang's secretiveness, and the shock and dismay of his master and family, it was not normative in the Shangqing circle

    actually it was normative.

    Quote

    For instance, the Shangqing School Daoist pharmacologist Tao Hongjing's 499 Zhen'gao (真誥, Declarations of the Perfected) describes taking a White Powder elixir.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_alchemical_elixir_poisoning#Six_dynasties

     

    the shock was due to the unexpected nature of the incident, not to the use of alleged poison. Also the story specifically denies any evidence of poisoning

    Quote

     the kettle was checked. It seemed to smell only of ordinary liquor.
    Ziliang's earthenware basin had been washed out and was odorless. No traces
    of drugs were found anywhere. There was really no evidence as to which drug
    he had used to achieve the Dao

     

     

     

     

    • Like 2

  9. 1 hour ago, Keith108 said:

    And, to have discussion about specific practices, as they pop up. 

     

    1 hour ago, Keith108 said:

    (Mitchell's version)

    well he is a malicious fraud so...whatever

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  10. 10 hours ago, Master Logray said:

     

    So one of the most prominent temple and the Hong Kong Taoist Association are just wrong.

    unfortunately they are wrong on this. And the reason for being wrong is that China is (and always been) a totalitarian state. The chinese leaders always minimize the sway of religion, in case of taoism  declaring that the historically most important scriptures do not belong to it. And the reason to keep a tight leash on religion stems from the recent history

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

     

    5 hours ago, wandelaar said:

    But they could be described as philosophers (for lack of a better word), that's all that is claimed.

    No; that is not all that is claimed. By describing them as philosophers you put them in opposition to religion, thereby  claiming  that philosophy and religion they are mutually exclusive. Which is patently false. And if they are not mutually exclusive then describing them just philosophers and not religious philosophers is false as well.

    5 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

    Now I wonder, has van Gulik based this story ( or rather this persona) on a story about a master Crane that is known in the classics?

    A master who dies alone and nothing but nails is found?

    this particular master is fictitious but there are many such cases in historical sources

    11 hours ago, SirPalomides said:

    So basically we're taking a set of categories that only (and debatably) apply in a very narrow window of Western intellectual history, and applying it to a set of ancient Chinese texts for which it is completely irrelevant. 

    exactly. In all of the human history religion predates 'philosophy' by thousands of years. Religion is documented in China long before 'the philosophical classics'. Claiming that the classics were corrupted into a religion or they are somehow isolated from religion is simply meaningless.

    • Like 1

  11. 1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

    But it's absurd for adherents of religious Taoism to now disqualify the original kind of Taoism as found in classics as not being the real thing.

    as usual there is not a single logical argument, only insults;)

    1 hour ago, SirPalomides said:

    "Philosophical Daoism" is a fake construct

    of course it is. because those who use that term never define it. what does it even mean? that the historical Lao-zi or Zhuang-zi were atheists or something? or they do not refer to religious rites in their books?

    • Like 1

  12. 3 hours ago, Nungali said:

    surely there are some things here of value  ??

    may be some value for the chosen ones;) those were written to save the gullible from the neidan-peddlers during the Great Neidan War of 2017 (? i dont remember exactly), since then the peddlers moved on to push used cars, ionizers and penny stocks, taking with them the value of my notes. Did you notice that thankfully we never see any neidan posts for quite a long time? The neidan fad is dead which is wonderful. Yippeei!  On the other hand it was so hilariously farcical...hehe;)


  13. Quote

    Is this forum still about Taoism...?

    it never was. it was always new-age masquerading as 'taoism', a post-modern simulacrum, a fad (with the exception of my posts and a couple of transient chinese people's)

    8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

    And should we do something about it?

    no, good riddance to the fad

     

    7 hours ago, wandelaar said:

    and learn about Taoism

    again that was never an option. not only because the others do not know what taoism (or buddhism) is but also because you (or them)  would not accept the truth about what those teachings really are. of course you are always welcome to ask me;)

    • Like 1

  14. 17 hours ago, Bhathen said:

    Doing qigong, I was in my best health. I never knew I could be so healthy, everything was in balance, in a snap the pain I never knew disappeared, it was like all the irregularities in my physical body just vanished. Maybe some people haven't experienced a healthier aspect or it takes time or nothing happens, maybe it was not for them,  does not mean qigong is a placebo.

    was? was that before or after this

    On 9/11/2023 at 7:55 PM, Bhathen said:

    Lately I have been angry to an extreme extent. Meditation or breathing exercises are just not helping me. 

    Been going through a lot of personal issues and health had been affected. Am not sure if the extreme nature of the anger is due to nerve issues

    51 minutes ago, Cobie said:

    Why so many people with an “inborn” defect? 

    the idealistic explanation is because these are the later times of kali-yuga. the materialistic one is because of the hydrocarbs based diet. either way les jeux sont faits; rien ne va plus 

    • Like 1

  15. 57 minutes ago, Bhathen said:

    Why does it feel like emotions are just transformed from one to another.?

    because its one shingle body of bodily qi behind them. its like a sea tide, when the tide rises it is anger; when the tide ebbs it is sadness. but it is the same seawater, the same qi

    1 hour ago, Bhathen said:

    How best to deal with stagnant qi, if TCM and acupuncture are least effective?

    lots of ways: exercise, diet, fasting, massage

    1 hour ago, Bhathen said:

    Qigong seems to cycle the excessive energy to bring about a balance, but I maybe wrong about it in the long run.

    you know ppl talk about doing qigong all the time but when asked whats the point of doing it -  all you get is a blank stare. and some anger hehe;)

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  16. 58 minutes ago, Apech said:

    Taoist Texts stagnation of qi in the liver is interesting - but is this not just a technical description of the bodily store of certain emotion?

    lets say i live in barbie land where nothing bad ever happened to me, hence no bad emotions, yet i have an inborn stagnating liver - then i will still have outbursts when the liver overflows even though there was no original trauma

    1 hour ago, Apech said:

    If the qi moves and causes a feeling like rage - how is that different to rage? 

    a real rage is caused by a direct external cause. an outburst of qi has none except an innate liver defect. E.g Tourrets syndrome

    1 hour ago, Apech said:

    Isn't the subtle body qi movement simply the correlate to the human emotions anyway???

    not quite. the physiological qi is insulated from the psychological qi, otherwise the body would not be able to function being disrupted by emotions all the time

    6 hours ago, Bindi said:

    his Chinese wife got angry she used to clutch her liver which was a sort of proof to him of the correlation. Where does your idea that it’s non-emotional stagnant qi come from? 

    she clutched her liver, others clutch pearls, yet others get red in the face, some suffer a stroke etc. The somatic response varies. Think this way: two apparently similar persons are exposed to a similar emotional stimuli. Why are their reactions different?

    2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

    aoist Texts does have a point.   The liver is closely associated  with emotions.  But the normal discourse is emotions affecting the liver first and sluggish liver Chi affects emotion later.

    correct, thats the common explanation, sufficient for the general audience, which  never asks why the liver? why not the lungs or the heart?

    • Like 1

  17. 7 hours ago, Apech said:

    Discuss

    since the commenters miss the point by a mile, i will explain. yours is a typical case of liver stagnation whereas an inborn energetic defect in the liver causes the qi to accumulate in the liver. When the liver is filled to capacity, the stagnant qi bursts forth in the moment of calm, causing an emotional-looking reaction which is not a real emotion. Instead it is a physiological reaction caused by the stagnated liver qi bursting to the surface. It is a symptom of a liver energy issue. It has nothing to do with meditation, repressed emotions, rage, past-life traumas etc yada yada

    Can be rectified by a number of modalities of which tcm drugs / acupuncture are the least effective

    • Thanks 1

  18. 6 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

    Using Google translate, which may or may not be accurate, I find the following points salient:

     

    If the mind is not relaxed, the nature will be fixed. If the form is not labored, it will be perfect. If the gods do not disturb you, the elixir will be knotted. ... It can be said that you never leave the house.

    just FYI since your wondered ;)

    On 5/22/2016 at 5:58 AM, Taoist Texts said:

    If the heart would not rush then the nature will be stable, if the body is not belabored then the semen will be whole. If the spirit is not bothered then the elixir will incept...  This can be called ‘not exiting the yard obtain the marvelous Dao’.

    • Like 1