Lataif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please:

 

Anyone come across any mention anywhere of "black chi" (?)

 

Or maybe . . . "dark chi" (?)

 

Thanks . . .

 

Please:

 

(1) Here is a diagram of spiritual alchemy process as proposed by 20th century teacher.

 

(2) It is said to demonstrate how denser food energy (768) is transformed into higher

spiritual energy (12) by impact of intermediate air energy (192).

 

(3) Does anyone recognize any similar diagram in Buddhism or Daoism (?)

 

Thanks.

Please:

 

(1) Anyone feel confident to guesstimate how common QiGong is in Chinese expatriate communites (?)

 

(2) I suppose it differs by country and social class.

 

(3)  But say in America, if you're talking to a person of Chinese descent -- what are chances that they do

some QiGong in the family (?)

 

(4) 10% (?)  33% (?)  50% (?) 

 

Thanks. 

55 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 It hasn´t been my experience that there´s much obsession on the part of teachers.  Some of Master Chia´s early material mentions the idea of semen retention, but later teachers such as Michael Winn do not emphasize that practice. 

The emphasis is in traditional writings.  Michael Winn, as you say, considers the supply of all Chi to be virtually unlimited . . .  

Please:

 

(1) It doesn't seem an exaggeration to me to say that traditional Qigong is obsessed 

with the idea that there is a limited amount of sexual JIng and that it must therefore

be used sparingly.

 

(2) But what's the evidence for this (?)

 

(3) It's demonstrable in physiological terms that the body replaces any used JIng.

 

(4) In fact, it probably increases both the supply AND the capacity to replenish

Jing based on the usage rate.

 

(5) This seems to me a case of traditional teaching either not understanding that

process . . . or having some other agenda to promote.

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

1) Because in general it’s dangerous and counter productive. You can cause yourself a lot of harm doing this. I’ve met several people that have done this and literally ruined their life.

 

2) yes it can

 

3) hyperventilating will also create intense experience

 

4) Don’t do it

 

5) Yes - in the intermediate and later stages of development. 

 

Net content of this comment:   zero.

 

Thanks for nothing.

On 10/4/2018 at 1:16 PM, Toni said:

Do you mean some kind of islamic qigong by sufi? Never heard of this!

 

Yes.  It's my primary practice.  My username is the key concept in that tradition . . .

Please:

 

(1) For some reason . . . I seem not to have already come across any discussion of this

obvious topic.  

 

(2) And when I experiment with it even a little bit . . . it gets very intense very quick.

 

(3) In fact, it's the most intense energetic experience that I can generate intentionally.

 

(4) So what do people here say about it (?)

 

(5) Is there some known practice for directing Chi into the 3rd eye . . . and what does it

propose to do (?)

 

Thanks again . . .    

      

On 9/16/2018 at 10:10 AM, AugustGreig said:

 I study "The Secret of the Golden Flower." 

 

I posted before about this book.  It's the best "direct method" text I've seen from the Daoist tradition . . .

Please;

 

(1) Does anyone know whether Paul Crompton, British teacher of Tai 

Chi, is still living (?)

 

(2) He started learning Tia Chi in 1968 . . . so today he'd be in his 70s

at least . . .

 

Thanks . . . 

Please:
 

(1) I keep having these intense moments of immense wonder and

gratitude lately.

 

(2) The amount of authentic spirituality available to us with the

internet today is truly staggering.

 

(3) I'm old enough to remember the mid 1960s . . . when there was

just Krishnamurti . . . Yogananda . . . Gurdjieff . . . and that was about it.

 

(4) No Daoists.  No Tibetans.  No Sufis.  No Advaitists.  No Zenists.

 

(5) You had to travel (time and money) to meet people and get a chance

to compare and contrast methods for your specific  needs.

 

(6) What then took a year to figure out . . . follow up on . . . and check out

. . . you can now do in a week.

 

(7) Do the corresponding numbers:  it's like living 52 lives in this one.

 

(8) It's like living . . . 52 incarnations.

 

(9) We're getting it done better and faster than any generation in the 

history of this planet.

 

(10) It's overwhelming to consider . . . 

On 5/25/2018 at 9:29 PM, Phoenix3 said:

I want to go back to the source and try to understand what they’re talking about, instead of getting lost in all the different meditation styles of today. How did the ancient daoists teach it? Please provide quotes.

 

(1) A quote only (?)

 

(2) (LOL) This is a slam dunk.

 

(3) From "The Secret of the Golden Flower" (Cleary translation):

 

"If you can look back again and again into the source

of mind, whatever you are doing, not sticking to any

image of person or self at all, then this is 'turning

the light around wherever you are.'  This is the finest

practice."

 

(4) There you go . . . and good luck. 

On 5/13/2018 at 2:47 AM, lifeforce said:

The Cleary translation is an extremely valuable book to me. The realisations I've had while reading it and meditating upon it's message have had a major impact in my cultivation.

In my opinion it's more Ch'an than Daoism, if you were to label it. But it is beyond labelling and compartmentalization.

There are two other books that I recommend which may enhance the wisdom found in The Secret of the Golden Flower.

 

1. Awakening to the Tao by Thomas Cleary.

2. Bankei by Peter Haskel.

 

 

(1) Thanks for recommendations.

 

(2) I'm definitely going to read more by Cleary -- he makes the difference.

 

(3) Half of the value of this "Golden Flower" edition is in his explanatory notes.

 

(4) The text is also interesting for a reason that I don't recall Cleary

mentioning.

 

(5) It's obvious (to me . . .) that the text was like the notes of some student

taken during teaching sessions.

 

(6) The topics range far and wide . . . from one tradition to another  . . . as if

someone were answering questions from students with all kinds of

backgrounds (or all kinds of curiosity).

 

(7) It's a valuable insight into a teaching situation -- but can be a little

confusing to someone who doesn't already have some idea of what that

situation might be like.

 

(8) My understanding is that the Christian gospels are similar in that way.

 

(9) They're originally notes of students working with a teacher in a school

 . . . and never intended for publication.

 

(10) They make 100% sense only in the context of that teaching situation

 -- which we don't know anything about . . .

 

 

4 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

The secret of the golden flower is very powerful classic. The approach is direct transmission without secondary methods. For those with the bones of an immortal . . . reading this classic will authenticate one's own experience.

 

I'm familiar with direct "pointing" from both Advaita Vedanta . . . and Dzogchen Buddhism.   

 

Zen (with which I'm also familiar) doesn't actually use it often (despite Mahakasyapa and

his flower . . .).

 

This is the first time I've seen it in Daoism.

 

Thanks . . . 

Please:

 

(1)  Doesn't Life really make you wonder sometimes (?)

 

(2) It's alternatingly awesome (for what you find) . . . and disconcerting (for what

you might have missed).

 

(3) I came across a reference to "The Secret of the Golden Flower" (translation by

Cleary) a few weeks ago in some author that I trusted.   So I ordered it from the

library and then it sat around beneath a pile of other books that I was making my

way through.

 

(4) The book eventually came due for return and I still had half a dozen of the other

books unread . . . so I considered giving it a pass after all.

 

(6) But then it had happened that a day came free for me and for some reason I chose

it next for my full attention . . .

 

***

 

(7) Wow,.

 

(8)  Although I've studied QiGong for some time . . . I haven't read any classic Daoist

literature at all.

 

(9) "The Secret of the Golden Flower" has been a great experience.

 

(10) I'm particularly struck by:

 

• the multiple shocks of recognition, across space and time (so to speak), of what
• was being talked about
•  
• the memorable figurative language in which the experiences were expressed

 

(11) The best example of the latter is probably "turning the light around" . . . as a

concise summary of spiritual practice.

 

***

 

(12) So some additional help with this from members here, please:

 

• How many are familiar with this text (?)
•  
• How do you rate/place it among other classics of Daoist literature (?)

 

Thanks very much (!)

 

 

6 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

On books vs. live teaching again:

 

When the ingenious physicist Theodor Kaluza (who laid much of the foundation of String Theory) wanted to demonstrate the often underestimated power of intellectual knowledge, he (a non-swimmer) read a book about swimming, plunged into the water and swam!

 

 

(1) That's a great contribution to this topic.  Really great.

 

(2) Reminds me of the story about a Tibetan master who was 

introduced to swimming and a swimming pool for the first time.

 

(3) He just walked over . . .  and jumped in.

 

(4) I tried to google it -- but this is the closest I could find:

 

https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/tibetan-immigrants-learn-swim-australia/2718832.html

 

Quote

“The Tibetans were very excited and very happy to be at the swimming center. The first thing I notice is they just jump in and that gave me the biggest scare of my life because none of them could swim. Tibetans in general are not afraid of the water. They love being near the ocean. They love going in the water, but they really don't know how to swim.”

 

 

 

 

 

(1) A follow up to my previous post about Sufism's interpretation of :

 

• Masculine as Unity (and its corresponding dynamic of Unification)
• Feminine as Multiplicity (and its corresponding dynamic of differentiation)

 

(2) Two experiential examples follow.

 

(3) Are these recognizable to readers here (?)  How might Daoism interpret them (?):

 

 

 

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Rara said:

 

There sure is an objective quality, but I'm not sure this really aplloes to the Billboard Top 40.

 

Progressive rock would always top the charts if that were the case imo

 

(1) Well . . . this is where the conversation gets tricky, and why

there's no general agreement.

 

(2) I'm not arguing that EVERY person reacts the SAME  way to

a piece of Music ALL of the time.

 

(3) I don't think it's necessary for that to be the case for Music

to have objective qualities.

 

(4) Instead, the fact that a LOT of people react the SAME way to

a piece of Music SOME of the time . . . seems to me  like a

compelling enough argument.

 

(5) But is it (?)

 

(6) I'm more interested here in the QUALITY of the argument . . .

than I am in the actual facts.

 

Thanks . . .

1 hour ago, silent thunder said:

It is not surprising to me then, when certain songs appear on the billboard top 40.  This is not a demonstration of objective truth to the quality of the sounds being broadcast by said songs, but an indication of the similarity of the interpretation of, and subsequent reaction to, those sounds among those listening.  This accounts for how music themes shift with generations. 

 

 

 

(1) But what does that mean (?)

 

(2) This is where I'm going around and around with it.

 

(3) Please explain, step by step, the sequence of events that leads to a song

being popular . . . as you understand it.

 

(4) My proposed sequence is something like this:

 

-- the song contains a certain quality that can be experienced by human beings

-- people's capacity, interest, conditioning, etc affects whether they do or do

not experience it and to what extent

-- but when lots of people do, the song is popular

 

(5) Analogously:

 

-- food contains a certain quality that can be experienced by human beings

(sweet, sour, bitter, etc)

-- people's capacity, interest, conditioning, etc affects whether they do or do

not experience it and to what extent

-- but when lots of people do, the taste is popular

1 hour ago, Rara said:

PR has a lot to do with it. And sales forces.

 

A good hook does help though. I say it's mainly subjective!

 

(1) Well . . . Sufism understands Music to have an objective quality that can

be experienced.

 

(2) And I'm confident that's true.

 

(3) But I've been looking at possible ways to demonstrate it . . . and it's problematical,

as one would expect. 

Please:

 

(1) I don't really mind not knowing an answer . . . but I hate not even knowing what I'm asking.

 

(2) I've got one of those now -- can anyone try to clarify it for me (?)

 

***

 

(3) I intuitively feel that something is that case . . . and that there should be a clear, compelling

way to state it.

 

(4) But when I try . . . it doesn't even convince me 100%.

 

(5) Here's my best try at it:

 

"The fact that there is a Billboard Top 40 . . . demonstrates that there must be objective qualities

in Music to which people respond . . . and that Music is not just a subjective experience".

 

(6) Or in other words: 

 

"Why would so many people all agree that there is something worthwhile about piece of Music

if they were not all experiencing in common an objective quality of that Music (?)"

 

(7)  This seems true to me.

 

(8) But the argument doesn't seem rigorous -- although I'm not sure why.

 

(9) So what do people here think:

 

(a) Is the conclusion in fact, true (?)

(b) Does the argument demonstrate it (?)

(c) If so, how does it demonstrate it (?)

(d) Is there a clearer, more rigorous way to state it  (?)

 

Thanks . . .  

Cannabis seems to be the most versatile such substance:

 

-- dozens of different cannabinoids in each plant

-- hundreds of different strains and hybrids of the plant

-- billions of different personalities with which to interact

-- gazillions of different applications, effects, possibilities

 

Any disagreement on that (?)

 

Is there any other substance that even comes close (?)

Sort of related:

 

A society needs prosperity . . . before it can generate enough people

with enough leisure time . . . to make advances in spirituality.

 

America after WW2 . . . is the example most of us are living through.

 

Awfully fortunate, in historic terms . . . 

On 4/21/2018 at 2:10 PM, dawei said:

But after reading the below, which I have stated myself (Taiji is really the Three), I can see where Yang and Yin could be associated to your above. 

 

As Isabelle Robinet points out in the following passage  from The Encyclopedia Of Taoism: 

 

“The taiji is the One that contains Yin and Yang, or the Three ... This Three is, in Taoist terms, the One (Yang) plus the Two (Yin), or the Three that gives life to all beings (Daode jing 42), the One that virtually contains the multiplicity. Thus, the wuji is a limitless void, whereas the taiji is a limit in the sense that it is the beginning and the end of the world, a turning point. The wuji is the mechanism of both movement and quiescence; it is situated before the differentiation between movement and quiescence, metaphorically located in the space-time between the kun 坤, or pure Yin, and fu 復, the return of the Yang. In other terms, while the Taoists state that taiji is metaphysically preceded by wuji, which is the Dao, the Neo-Confucians says that the taiji is the Dao.”

 

 

Ah.  Thanks. 

 

I'd have been surprised if there was in fact no such interpretation . . . but I didn't have an example to confirm the fact.

 

So this is a helpful cross-reference . . .