Karateka

Hi, this is my first post on the forum so...hello! I wanted to know if there were any 'Bums who had much knowledge or interest in the failry hazy and poorly-documented connections between Chinese body-systems of conditioning, particulalry internal arts like Qigong - and the introduction of Chuan'Fa into the RyuKyu islands - i presume that internal and external body conditioning practices went hand in hand. Tradition has it that Karate grew from a blending of "indiginous" Okinawan fighting arts with Kenpo, the product of course was an "empty-handed" technique capable of fighting against armed Chinese and then later Japanese rulers. Later this was brought famously to the mainland of Japan by Gichin Funakoshi, which is well documented. It is also documented (how truthfully?) by such as Patrick McCarthy that several of the old Okinawan Karate school Sensei's owned copies of the "Bubishi", of Chinese origin, which is an esoteric text documenting many aspects of vital point striking, incorporation of daily rhythms into fighting techniques, and herbal medicines as well as images of stances/techniques. The main Karate literature focuses on hard physical conditioning of the body, but there is an emphasis on breath control and Ki flow, however if i remember my "Tai Chi Classics" and Nei Gong correctly then force power is generated through storing and directing "Jing". Now i'm getting onto shaky ground, as there seems to be very little easily accessible material on "Kiko" exercises - a form of Qigong it seems. I was very interested to know if anyone knows of any decent source material regarding this Japanese variant of Qigong. I have learned and use several forms of Chinese Qigong in my Tai-Chi practice, but i wanted to compare/contrast the Karate variants to see how that varied from the "softer" martial verions. Presumably there were more fixed/lower stance/strengthening variations rather than the more circular softer movements? I found this interesting blog, but it's hardly what you could call source material: http://ryukyuma.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/okinawan-kiko.html Any guidance in this area would be very helpful.

This is an excellent little article comparing Chi-kung/Qigong to Sanchin Kata: http://www.otgka.co.uk/uploads/6/6/8/2/6682770/sanchin.pdf

It seems likley that the "eighteen hand movements of Arhat" allegedly transmitted by Bodhidharma/Daruma, said to be that taught from Yi Jin Jing is very similar to the Eight-Strands of Silk Brocade form of Qigong (well the first 8 movements of the 18), and although examination of the moves in Yi Jin Jing are NOT the same as the 8 strands that I know, there is enough similarity to make the assumption that I already know some of what I am asking! It is true that there is a lot of variation from one teacher/tradition to another in the form - forms diversify over time and region... but the breath work and Chi/Jing development are probably consistent - there is more than one way of getting it to work for you. Here is a description of Kiko exercises/breath work as relevant to Karate: http://www.so-honbu-dojo-konbo.nl/kiko.htm http://centralpamartialarts.blogspot.co.uk/2008/02/okinawan-kiko.html

Although it is straying off topic... It is no surprise that ancient systems of codes of conduct, social hierarchy, warrior mindset when preserved like fine porcelain from a mediaeval past, and closed to the world when brought back into the industrial age was an anachronism from the past doomed to clash, with a rigid structure too inflexibl to withstand the forces of change needed to co-habit peaceably with the "modern" world. The warrior classes had internalised their budo and this led them to the most amazing bravery of the Kamikazee... not a term of reference that my Grandad would approve of, but of course history is told by the winning side. There is no doubt however that the Japanese imperial expansion into asia did demonstrate as is true for many other examples in history that outsiders were often treated brutally - which considering the mediaeval warrior mindset would have not seemed out of place in mediaeval Europe, but shocked us in the "modern world" and perhaps was facilitated by Industrial strength... But those examples are something to be ashamed of wherever and whenever they arise. yet from this, the Karate of Okinawan schools always seem to come from a perspective of a defensive art, yes karate of course delas with defense and devestating one-kill counter-attacks, but you cannot go half-measures as a peasant against a fully armed samurai with steel as you wouldn't be offered the opportunity! Power can be used for both good and ill, and the responsibility lies within each of us to stick to the way, which is always of truth, honesty, respect, balance and harmony both within ourselves and towards others. I like to see out post-modern age as being one where we have the opportunity to recover the sum total of human learning/experience/history and have a duty to forge that harmony in our brief span on this planet. I've looked at images of Okinawa post-war and cannot truly appreciate the devestation as i have not lived in that kind of age or time, and am hopeful that modern communication is liberating to individuals so that we can prevent single powers, governments, authorities bringing us into such crises, that we can fight the propaganda and spread the truth, so that minorities can never again subvert ordinary people into closed-minded thinking. Peace!

Does anyone own a copy of the out-of print: "The Essence of Gojo-Ryu Vol.1" by Barrett and Lever? Cheers!

Sanchin Kata is one of the main two Kata of Goju-Ryo Okinawan Karate, the other being Tensho... which does seem to correspond with what i have read elsewhere about there being two main techniques, outer/hard - body conditioning, and inner/soft... and there is strong emphasis on Ki and breathing techniques in Goju-Ryo Karate. There looks to be an interesting quote in the blurb for "The Essence of Gojo-Ryu Vol.1" by Barrett and Lever referring to Sanchin Qigon and San Tanden (The 3 Tanden = tan-tien) Unfortunately this is out of print, nor is it listed up on ebay or abe-books. Does anyone have a copy? (I'll post up in the different forum section to ask same question)

Thanks, though I think "Zanshin" refers to the mental state after a move, or before a move - a "relaxed alertness" - meaning that focussing on winning or a particular technique will lead to over-attachment, loss of total awareness and failure, it is a fusion of mind and body.

http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=11967.0 The first post in this link suggests that the Yin Jin Jing "involves mostly hitting oneself with large pieces of wood, iron, and steel over the course of many years over the whole body. It also involves stretching and a qigong/martial arts form called the 12 Fists of Da'mo".... that sounds exactly like what is described in the first link i put up and the "Daruma exercises"/Shaolin Iron Shirt Qigong. I think i have most of the answers i need for now, and some studying to do.

yeah, i think i'm stumbling heavily on the variable romanisation of chinese names here. thanks for the advice!

Ok from Wikipedia:

Maybe not... i'm just exploring the inner aspects of karate, and how they connect with inner Chinese practices. It seems what i am after may well be in "the two books written by Dharuma". Quoting from Tetsuhiro Hokama's "History and Traditions of Okinawan Karate": Of course this pseudo-history is disputed, and the connection with buddhist practices and the link to pranayama therefore may be erroneous. Some are of the opinion that karate was instead formed by Shorin-ryu and Shorei-ryu brought from China to Okinawa (and mixed with indiginous Okinawan self-defence). It could be said that it it is impossible to claim true precedence as many arts may be ancient and undocumented and have travelled in several ways across asia, or even to have been developed independently, though a Yogic connection seems entirely possible. Now the Senzuikyo certainly sounds like Qigong, and Tetsuhiro Hokama's book claims to have excerpts from a book called Ekkinkyogi - The Teachings of Ekkinkyo by 'karate expert and scholar' Sato Kinbe, who is alleged to have obtained copies of the two books (of Dharuma). I have ordered a copy of Tetsuhiro Hokama's book, but this is a book quoting a book, quoting a book by a mythical figure. Getting on very shaky ground here!!! Does anyone know of any copies of "Dharuma's two books"?

iron shirt, and iron balls. So am i right in thinking that this "Kiko" is more a form of body-conditioning, with appropriate stance/balance and muscular control to sustain blows... rather than body work that controls power in offensive moves like punches and kicks?

Ok thanks, i wondered if there were any writings on breath or meditation/ controlling ki in said kata, or are they hidden in kata? I think i need to study the breathing patterns in kata and extrapolate from what i know of tai chi... I don't really think i'm gonna meet an okinawan sensei who can transmit secret techniques anytime soon!

It is always sensible to consider that association does not imply causation. Pain is not "in the mind" it is of the body, becuase the body and the mind are one. It is true that anticipation and stress can build up as muscle tension which are fight-or flight related physiological repsonses, and surely how you percieve your pain is more important than how you think you should percieve it - overanalysis never did anyone any good. Chances are its a coincidence, that probably would best be overcome by a hot bath, some painkillers, and focussing on what you really want in your heart. If you withdraw from pain, you withdraw from contact with life...pain reminds us we are still here, our body is real and connected with now... though back pain sometimes can be a lesson that we are too sedentary, too overweight, not exercising our core muscles enough... but on other times, particulalry if we have numb legs, or weakness of a limb, or can't wee or poo properly that we might have slipped a lumbar disc. Consider wisely!

Hi! Just being polite and saying hello, having just registered. My interest is in Eastern philosophy in general, in particular Taoism and Buddhism. I have pursued this interest for about 20 years, having read Lao Tsu, Buddhist texts (more of the Tibetan variety), some Zen works, and pursued interests in Yoga. I then moved onto Tai Chi, and Chi-Kung/Quigong and learned the Yang-Style full long form. More recently I have been reading Japanese works regarding the Sword like the Go Rin No Sho, and works regarding the devlopment of Budo in Karate. I have recently obtained a copy of the Bubishi, and am studying some TCM with a view to understanding Taoist Alchemy, with it's implications for understanding core texts that were carried through into the early Karate masters in Okinawa. My pursuit is perfection of self, inner strength and control of my own mind. I read a few posts regarding some of the books i am reading and thought here was a good place to ask questions, as the undoubtably will arise. Cheers!

Thanks!