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#1 Marblehead

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 02:02 PM

The Way has attributes and evidence, but it has no action and no form.  It may be transmitted but cannot be received.  It may be apprehended but cannot be seen.  From the root, from the stock, before there was heaven or earth, for all eternity truly has it existed.  It inspirits demons and gods, gives birth to heaven and earth.  It lies above the zenith but is not high; it lies beneath the nadir but is not deep.  It is prior to heaven and earth, but it is not ancient; it is senior to high antiquity, but it is not old.

The clansman Hsiwei attained it,
and thereby demarcated heaven and earth;

The clansman Fuhsi attained it,
and thereby adjusted the breath of the mother.
 
Polaris attained it,
and has not deviated throughout the ages;
 
The sun and moon attained it,
and have never rested throughout the ages;
 
K'anp'i attained it,
and thereby inherited Mount K'unlun;
 
{{The axis of the world, located far to the west of China.}}
 
P'ingyi attained it,
and thereby wandered in the great rivers.
 
Chien Wu attained it,
and thereby dwelled on supreme Mount T'ai;
 
The Yellow Emperor attained it,
{{This is Huang Ti, whose title might also be rendered as "Yellow / Blond Deus."  According to legend, he is said to have subdued the warring tribes at the dawn of Chinese civilization and to have taught them medicine, mathematics, musical scales, and other vital aspects of culture.}}
and thereby ascended to cloud-filled heaven.
 
Chuan Hsu attained it,
and thereby dwelled in his dark palace.
 
Yiich'iang attained it,
and stands at the north pole.
 
The Queen Mother of the West attained it,
and sits at faraway Shaokuang;
no one knows her beginning,
no one knows her end.
 
Progenitor P'eng attained it,
and lived from the time of Shun
to the time of the five hegemons.
 
{{A ruler who is able to exert control over a number of competing states.  The term is applied particularly to the leaders of Ch'i, Sung, Chin, Ch'in, and Ch'u during the Warring States period.}}
 
Fu Yiieh attained it,
and thereby became minister of Wuting,
grandly in possession of all under heaven;
mounted upon Sagittarius,
riding upon Scorpio,
he joined the arrayed stars.

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#2 Taoist Texts

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Posted 19 March 2017 - 06:25 PM

 

The Way has attributes and evidence, but it has no action and no form.  It may be transmitted but cannot be received.  

 

 

夫道,有情有信,無為無形;可傳而不可受

 

This is the Dao; there is in It emotion and sincerity, but It does nothing and has no bodily form. It may be handed down (by the teacher), but may not be received (by his scholars)

/Legge/


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#3 Marblehead

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:46 AM

I don't like the "emotion and sincerity" in that.  It gives Dao human attributes.


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#4 Stosh

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:26 AM

Then that excludes motherhood and all gender assignations, Yes? 


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#5 Marblehead

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 02:13 PM

Then that excludes motherhood and all gender assignations, Yes? 

 

Yes.

 

Non-personified therefore non-gender.


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#6 Stosh

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 05:49 PM

I'd say that too.
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#7 Taoist Texts

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 06:55 PM

I don't like the "emotion and sincerity" in that.  It gives Dao human attributes.

Also here ZZ details his belief in the ascended gods and spirits.


Edited by Taoist Texts, 20 March 2017 - 07:00 PM.

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#8 Marblehead

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 03:03 AM

Also here ZZ details his belief in the ascended gods and spirits.

 

Yeah, but in my opinion we need be careful with this and not make any assumptions.


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#9 Stosh

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 03:08 AM

Yes ,the only assumption that should be made,is that in creative writing, one is compelled to use existing understanding to set a stage for new stuff to be grasped. Is the character tian , and is that heaven in the way we talk about the cosmos? or is it heaven in the sense that its a place in the sky where magic people live and mess around with the affairs of mortals,, like Asgard or Olympus.

Edited by Stosh, 21 March 2017 - 03:31 AM.

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#10 Taoist Texts

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 04:28 AM

 Is the character tian , 

yes it is 天 tian

 

 

and is that heaven in the way we talk about the cosmos? or is it heaven in the sense that its a place in the sky where magic people live and mess around with the affairs of mortals,, like Asgard or Olympus.

 

 

Same thing, actually, since tian is the place where gods ride stars.


世人个个学长年,不悟年年在目前,我得宛丘平易法,只将食粥致神仙。

#11 Stosh

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 04:39 AM

yes it is 天 tian

 

 

 

Same thing, actually, since tian is the place where gods ride stars.

Never heard that before, these star riding gods , they , willfully orchestrate the lives of men? Choose winners and losers , kill folks who displease them ? cause special bounty to those who honor them like making more fruit grow or something? 



#12 Taoist Texts

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 05:24 AM

Never heard that before, these star riding gods , they , willfully orchestrate the lives of men? Choose winners and losers , kill folks who displease them ? cause special bounty to those who honor them like making more fruit grow or something? 

Damn straight. Thats what they do.

 

As early as the Shang Dynasty (2070 B.C. – 1600 B.C.), the sky was divided into 31 regions, each consisting of a group of stars. The Three Enclosures (三垣 sānyuán) formed the centerpiece of the northern night sky, and can be observed all year around. Ancient Chinese thought of them as the residence and work place of the Jade Emperor (玉帝 Yùdì) and his ministers, as well as the busy downtown streets they governed.

 

The Jade Emperor's Birthday (天公誕) is said to be the ninth day of the first lunar month.[9] On this day Taoist temples hold a Jade Emperor ritual (拜天公, bài Tiān Gōng, literally "heaven worship") at which priests and laymen prostrate themselves, burn incense and make food offerings.

In the morning of this birthday, Chinese and Taiwanese households set up an altar table with 3 layers: one top (containing offertories of six vegetables (六齋), noodles, fruits, cakes, tangyuan, vegetable bowls, and unripe betel, all decorated with paper lanterns) and two lower levels (containing the five sacrifices and wines) to honor the deities below the Jade Emperor.[9] The household then kneels three times and kowtows nine times to pay homage and wish him a long life.[9]


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#13 Stosh

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:28 AM

Damn straight. Thats what they do.

 

As early as the Shang Dynasty (2070 B.C. – 1600 B.C.), the sky was divided into 31 regions, each consisting of a group of stars. The Three Enclosures (三垣 sānyuán) formed the centerpiece of the northern night sky, and can be observed all year around. Ancient Chinese thought of them as the residence and work place of the Jade Emperor (玉帝 Yùdì) and his ministers, as well as the busy downtown streets they governed.

 

The Jade Emperor's Birthday (天公誕) is said to be the ninth day of the first lunar month.[9] On this day Taoist temples hold a Jade Emperor ritual (拜天公, bài Tiān Gōng, literally "heaven worship") at which priests and laymen prostrate themselves, burn incense and make food offerings.

In the morning of this birthday, Chinese and Taiwanese households set up an altar table with 3 layers: one top (containing offertories of six vegetables (六齋), noodles, fruits, cakes, tangyuan, vegetable bowls, and unripe betel, all decorated with paper lanterns) and two lower levels (containing the five sacrifices and wines) to honor the deities below the Jade Emperor.[9] The household then kneels three times and kowtows nine times to pay homage and wish him a long life.[9]

Is any of that the work of Lao or Chuang? or is this based on alternate sources whose opinions are their own. 


Edited by Stosh, 21 March 2017 - 06:29 AM.


#14 Taoist Texts

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:52 AM

  or is this based on alternate sources whose opinions are their own. 

that was from wiki)


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#15 Stosh

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:09 AM

that was from wiki)

That's fine , what I am getting at is that there are schools of thought for any large religion family and the vision of meddling gods riding stars is very old Taoism .. I think..

Anyway , if one makes the assumption that Chuang and Lao are of the same opinions because other folks under the heading of taoists thought along those lines , then we still need to check if this fits with that which is espoused by Lao and Chuang.  I am thinking that there is a very clear inherent discrepancy with that assumption, and if you tear that apart , I am likely going to have to reject Daoism as a superstitious thinigie which I cant accommodate. 



#16 Taoist Texts

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:22 AM

  then we still need to check if this fits with that which is espoused by Lao and Chuang.  I am thinking that there is a very clear inherent discrepancy with that assumption, and if you tear that apart , I am likely going to have to reject Daoism as a superstitious thinigie which I cant accommodate. 

No, no i am not gonna do anything of the sort. Daoism is what it is to you. There is no feasible definition of daoism either scholarly or consensual. If i don't like religion i am just gonna say that religious daois is the fringe, while the core is some realistic philosophical exposition. Its a make your own daoism thing.)


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