Emptiness (sunnyata)

[dwai]

[Marblehead]

How to give rise?

Get out of the way!

It happens of itself.

It already is... it is the 'you' that is in the way.

 

 

Yes, in my understanding, the 'you' above is referring to a mal-adjusted ego.  A false image of our self.

[Marblehead]

 

Beautifully articulated. It is so simple and yet so complicated. Simple because it is never not there. Complicated, because we look for it hither tither and can't find it.

 

All the efforts of meditation, cultivation, skillful thinking and prayer are meant to allow us to get out of the way. When eventually we do manage to get out of the way we realize that which we were seeking has never been anywhere but within us all the time.

 

But it doesn't lead to a sense of frustration or lamentation about wasted time as it all will simply be a set of happenings.

 

I used to use the phrase "The answer you seek is within." but so few understood what I was saying or they disagreed with my statement so I just stopped saying it.

 

The instincts for survival will always give us the correct answers.  Some people just don't want to do the work though.

[[email protected]]

The instincts for survival will always give us the correct answers. Some people just don't want to do the work though.

Not just to argue, but to show some examples of opposite situations with the "always correct answers in survival conditions". There are lots of situations when people are chaotically running in the burning house with the only wish to survive... can not find the way out because of panic and are burned to death. What is this example about? The same situation with the practice - people try anything to find the right way for development, but I is hardly difficult if possible to succeed without a teacher, because our mind is not perfect.

Rgrds, Ilya

[silent thunder]

it seems emptiness is the natural state

 

yet only experienced

when I stop seeking, cultivating and incessantly doing stuff

 

emptiness is revealed by non action... abiding all along in resting clarity

covered over by the noise and action of seeking and doing

[Marblehead]

Not just to argue, but to show some examples of opposite situations with the "always correct answers in survival conditions". There are lots of situations when people are chaotically running in the burning house with the only wish to survive... can not find the way out because of panic and are burned to death. What is this example about? The same situation with the practice - people try anything to find the right way for development, but I is hardly difficult if possible to succeed without a teacher, because our mind is not perfect.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

Yeah, absolute statements can always be proven false because of at least one exception.

 

My statement was a generalization.  Sure, there are people who commit suicide.  This requires a conscious brain over-riding the power of instincts.  Same with a mother wanting to save a child; she will ignore her own survival in order to save the child.

 

And yes, if there is a teacher in your area and you have the means to engage the teacher then the best decision would likely be to engage.  (That is, if the teacher is teaching what you want to learn.)

[[email protected]]

Yeah, absolute statements can always be proven false because of at least one exception.

Golden words written in the right place . I just wanted to point out that our mind is not so perfect to be followed everytime. Some decisions we take are rather irrelevant and unpredictable, and all this stuff is happening due to disharmony in ourselves, to some extent. Here we return to the theme of practice.

[Daeluin]

Over the years, I have found that many practices give me this "Open.Clear.Awake" state. It is different from "yoga high" /"qigong high" states.

What worked for me:

1. Kryia yoga ( 45  min +)

2. Qigong certain sets ( ones that go into emptiness, not "spiritual highness"). 

3. Buddhist Puja's  ( i.e mantra->prostration->mandala offering->mantra) at the temple. 

 

It's a different state than intentional "fire burning". It's a different state of getting "high" on kundalini yoga. It's exactly what it states -> clarity,alertness,awakeness ( even if it is 5am or 11pm).

 

Interesting that you mention fire here.

 

The trigram of fire ☲ contains postcelestial yang surrounding precelestial yin. This precelestial yin is related to emptiness and I believe is the merging of the precelestial jing,qi,shen. Liu Yiming calls these yuan jing, yuan qi, and yuan shen, yang within the postcelestial, but yin within the precelestial. It is the precelestial yin of emptiness which forms what he calls the dharma-body; the body of the rupadhatu realm.

 

When moving in the direction of the postcelstial, fire burns, combusts.

 

When moving in the direction of the precelestial, it turns to light, illuminating rather than combusting, and then as this illumination stabilizes the light becomes clear - transforming to absolute clarity.

 

A good standing meditation to explore this dynamic is the usual feet shoulder width apart, relaxed, shoulders back, the space between the shoulder-blades relaxed, open, palms about shoulder width apart, at about shoulder level, palms facing away from the body as if pushing someone away, at a distance that feels relaxed and open and balanced. Elbows are dropped, relaxed, empty. Fingers empty and relaxed, pointing up to the heavens.

 

Normally I practice this in a sequence of other standing meditations related to the other trigrams (here fire following thunder, then followed by lake), but this general principle of body shaping may be explored, and different influences may be felt depending on what type of qi one is stabilizing within the standing. As it is part of a sequence, I do not hold it for extended periods of time and do not know if this is advisable, but it seems like something that may be incorporated well with a mix of other types of qigong. I note that this basic shape is also made in the horse stance in a couple of chen style taijiquan forms.

 

In general I've noticed that this clarity found within ☲ comes from a unity and stability within heart-mind, and deepens though openness within stillness. Allow the form to nurture the formless.

 

In the beginning it is possible this will cause combustion, in which case one should take care to surrender one's ego wholeheartedly into becoming light, so as to transform the combustion and not burn up one's energies. And then work on clarification.

 

I don't know how this resonates with other practices here, it is merely something I have been exploring lately.

 

(I will also add that a good way of grounding fire is the principle of earth ☷, receptivity, where the arms are are straight with elbows slightly bent, by the slide but slightly forward with the palms flat, parallel to the earth and just in front of the legs, whereby there is receptivity to the energies of both earth and heaven. If one moves the palms gently apart and to the sides, this is called parting the clouds of the mind. It may also be good to note that the mind has a proclivity toward becoming active in these gentle receptive postures, so it should be surrendered, letting go of attachments and allowing the energies held by the mind to relax, empty out and merge with the breath and become a part of the whole.)

[exorcist_1699]

On 2017-5-11 at 5:05 AM, Daeluin said:

Interesting that you mention fire here.

 

The trigram of fire ☲ contains postcelestial yang surrounding precelestial yin. This precelestial yin is related to emptiness and I believe is the merging of the precelestial jing,qi,shen. Liu Yiming calls these yuan jing, yuan qi, and yuan shen, yang within the postcelestial, but yin within the precelestial. It is the precelestial yin of emptiness which forms what he calls the dharma-body; the body of the rupadhatu realm.

 

When moving in the direction of the postcelstial, fire burns, combusts.

 

When moving in the direction of the precelestial, it turns to light, illuminating rather than combusting, and then as this illumination stabilizes the light becomes clear - transforming to absolute clarity.

 

A good standing meditation to explore this dynamic is the usual feet shoulder width apart, relaxed, shoulders back, the space between the shoulder-blades relaxed, open, palms about shoulder width apart, at about shoulder level, palms facing away from the body as if pushing someone away, at a distance that feels relaxed and open and balanced. Elbows are dropped, relaxed, empty. Fingers empty and relaxed, pointing up to the heavens.

 

Normally I practice this in a sequence of other standing meditations related to the other trigrams (here fire following thunder, then followed by lake), but this general principle of body shaping may be explored, and different influences may be felt depending on what type of qi one is stabilizing within the standing. As it is part of a sequence, I do not hold it for extended periods of time and do not know if this is advisable, but it seems like something that may be incorporated well with a mix of other types of qigong. I note that this basic shape is also made in the horse stance in a couple of chen style taijiquan forms.

 

In general I've noticed that this clarity found within ☲ comes from a unity and stability within heart-mind, and deepens though openness within stillness. Allow the form to nurture the formless.

 

In the beginning it is possible this will cause combustion, in which case one should take care to surrender one's ego wholeheartedly into becoming light, so as to transform the combustion and not burn up one's energies. And then work on clarification.

 

I don't know how this resonates with other practices here, it is merely something I have been exploring lately.

 

(I will also add that a good way of grounding fire is the principle of earth ☷, receptivity, where the arms are are straight with elbows slightly bent, by the slide but slightly forward with the palms flat, parallel to the earth and just in front of the legs, whereby there is receptivity to the energies of both earth and heaven. If one moves the palms gently apart and to the sides, this is called parting the clouds of the mind. It may also be good to note that the mind has a proclivity toward becoming active in these gentle receptive postures, so it should be surrendered, letting go of attachments and allowing the energies held by the mind to relax, empty out and merge with the breath and become a part of the whole.)

 

 

People who follow the Buddhist way are unlikely capable of , or interested in , understanding the Taoist  theory of post-heavenly and pre-heavenly trigrams, which although borrowed from the Yi Jing , does  grasp the essence of humans' predicament  at its core; unfortunately , it is only after your capable of refining qi into Shen , do you get a glimpse of  what it really refers to .

 

A post-heavenly yin-typed mind , ie, our daily consciousness , although occasionally can be  forced  into an empty state, is very difficult to transform itself  into Shen or a Buddha Mind by relying  only on its own effort ;  for example,   whenever it desires to empty itself, it adds a " mind to empty "  to itself  ,  so not to speak of other spiritual fluctuations, how can it become emptied    ? " 動念即乖" (  " Any rise or shift of the mind is doomed ")  , but how can it be ?

 

Taoist treatment  to solve this trouble is   smartly not lied in the mind itself but on the   other side , a hidden pre-heavenly Yang ...; I think it is what  Daeluin tries  to say .

Edited May 15, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[Daeluin]

On 5/14/2017 at 1:45 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

A post-heavenly yin-typed mind , ie, our daily consciousness , although occasionally can be  forced  into an empty state, is very difficult to transform itself  into Shen or a Buddha Mind by relying  only on its own effort ;  for example,   whenever it desires to empty itself, it adds a " mind to empty "  to itself  ,  so not to speak of other spiritual fluctuations, how can it become emptied    ? " 動念即乖" (  " Any rise or shift of the mind is doomed ")  , but how can it be ?

 

Certainly, the techinique I am speaking of relies not just on the mind, but on use of the body. This practice I have been taught is used here in standing meditation, but is also integrated into spiritual martial arts, the emphasis on a combination of movement within stillness to cultivate formless by use of form. First the body is emptied, then used as catalyst to empty the mind.

 

Quote

Taoist treatment  to solve this trouble is   smartly not lied in the mind itself but on the   other side , a hidden pre-heavenly Yang ...; I think it is what  Daeluin tries  to say .

 

Yes, it is not entirely clear to me yet. However what I speak of in my last post is only related to the principle of fire and emptiness. The hidden pre-heavenly yang is more related to the principle of water. Using principles of both water and fire together appears to be important. Some traditions may only work with emptiness - in Buddhism I sense that at least those practices of Tummo are also working with the principle of the hidden yang found within water.

 

In his commentary to the Qiaoyao ge, Liu Yiming writes: "Even if you bring the cultivation of your ancestral Xing to achievement, if it does not go through refinement in the great fire of the furnace, it is Yin and it is not Yang."

(Translation by Fabrizio Pregadio in note 2 to chapter 5 of his Cultivating the Tao.)

 

While it seems clear that the yang within the yin, as well as refining yin ling, are two aspects specifically focused upon in daoist neidan that may be neglected in practices solely focused upon emptiness, it is not entirely clear to me that these are related to the same principle as I portray them here.

[exorcist_1699]

On 2017/5/23 at 0:34 AM, Daeluin said:

 

 

 

In his commentary to the Qiaoyao ge, Liu Yiming writes: "Even if you bring the cultivation of your ancestral Xing to achievement, if it does not go through refinement in the great fire of the furnace, it is Yin and it is not Yang."

(Translation by Fabrizio Pregadio in note 2 to chapter 5 of his Cultivating the Tao.)

 

 

 

To me , Liu's words  imply some  criticism on Buddhist way of attaining the Buddha Heart  ( referred to as 'ancestral Xing')  , of course , a seemingly  real  , yet in fact  a Yin-typed one . From Taoist standpoint , a great Mind should always be the product  of    jing  cum qi 's refinement .  Zen's no-step, no-form, no-need-of- accumulation approach  is conditional : 

it is only true for the superb-te (' 上德 ' ) ; otherwise, please ask for jing and qi's help...

[[email protected]]

My understanding is that Buddhists have lost the ming method some time ago and therefore had to concentrate on heart & mind stabilization, so-called Xing practices. They have gone far in these aspects but this is only one side of the coin.
The reason why they are popular now and in the past times is that their methods are simple and available for the wide auditory.

Rgrds, Ilya

[Fa Xin]

for me emptiness was just a theory, until it wasn't. 

 

One thing that helps is to accept everything as being ok... without the need to change anything. This helps to release things that are blocking "emptiness"

[exorcist_1699]

Both Buddhism and Taoism talk about emptiness and emptied mind , but  because the Buddhist and Zen ones came to the West much earlier than the Taoist, so it gives people  quite a lot of confusion . How can we differentiate them  ? How unique are the Taoist ?

 

I think , there are at least  3 of them : 

 

1) No matter how much a  school talks about emptiness and emptied mind , as long as it  talks about them in the context of jing , qi, shen , then it is a Taoist school , not a Buddhist one .

 

2)  No matter how a school emphasizes the importance of  emptiness or emptied mind, as long as it claims  that the physical  body , as the embodiment of jing and qi , is as important as the spiritual part of our life, not something illusory ,  then it is Taoist , not Buddhist or others' . In short , it  maintains Taoist principle of dual  ( Xing and Meng )cultivation .

 

3) No matter what fantastic words a school admires that great , emptied Mind , as long as it recognizes that a Mind ,  even  having gained many 3rd- eye abilities,  is still  something  being  encased in a physical skull, limited by a fragile body , living a short earthly life  incapable of determining  its future ... ie , a mind still having  its yin  character and  needs Yang, the pre-heavenly qi, to help, then it is a school of Taoism , not others' . In fact,  two of the contributions of Taoist theory , very different from others, are :

 

- its pointing out the shortcomings ( yin-character ) of  most spiritual cultivation , not necessarily  be Buddhist , but can come from other religions; 

 

-its request  for both spiritual and physical proofs : Capable of seeing through a physical barrier by your mind-eye is not enough  ,  you are also asked to regenerate   a fallen tooth at  old age..;

that is , the emptied Mind you nourish should be good enough, deep enough to touch , say,  the marrow level the body.., which reflects the Yang at deeper layer.

 

Most modern superficial -minded Buddhists   always say that an  aging, sick  body is unrelated , unimportant . ..blah, blah, blah for their cultivation , yet  through some  detailed  reading of the biography/ autobiography of those Zen masters , likely you can find  another picture of the truth .

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

You did that very well, I think.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

Zen Buddhism has its roots partially in Daoist qigong/alchemy, which it greatly simplified and broke down to essentials. For instance, the meditation posture of the Zen practitioner is designed to induce the microcosmic orbit (MCO), but traditional Zen teachers rarely talk about the energetics that are at play here and focus more on philosophical questions.

[exorcist_1699]

On 2017-6-9 at 1:41 AM, Michael Sternbach said:

Zen Buddhism has its roots partially in Daoist qigong/alchemy, which it greatly simplified and broke down to essentials. For instance, the meditation posture of the Zen practitioner is designed to induce the microcosmic orbit (MCO), but traditional Zen teachers rarely talk about the energetics that are at play here and focus more on philosophical questions.

 

Hardly will Buddhists, not to speak of followers of Zen  , recognize posture as something  important for them because they view the physical body as illusory ; if they do ,  they face  contradictions in their preaching .

 

On the other hand ,Taoist alchemy does recognize the importance of posture, at least, at initial stage . The posture that enables you  to get qi , in the order of easiness,  is :  Sitting upright with legs crossed , standing with hands placed near dantian , lying on your side, lying on your back ,  walking ...; or course, if you can enter an emptied Mind quickly and stay there persistently , then no matter what posture you adopt , you can get your qi easily .

 

Apart from posture, what kind of  drinks or food you eat is another factor you have to pay attention to :

1) Spicy food lets your qi expand , which is inappropriate to consolidating  an emptied Mind;

2) Iced drinks that is  against yang qi  should also be avoided.

 

At last , a factor  looks seemingly  spiritual , yet qi-related , is : 

1) If you get a shallow mind always  jealous of others' achievement  ,then it in fact  prevents        you  from uplifting and expanding  yourself to get more qi;

2) A narrow mind which is always eager to show off some  achievement you get can only block  you from advancing.

 

So, these are qi-related factors that Taoism emphasizes ,  yet  overlooked by the Buddhists.

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[Michael Sternbach]

49 minutes ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

Hardly will Buddhists, not to speak of followers of Zen  , recognize posture as something  important for them because they view the physical body as illusory ; if they do ,  they face  contradictions in their preaching .

 

That is incorrect. Maintaining correct body posture was indeed a major focus where I was practising.

 

While the body is seen as illusory in the sense that it is impermanent, this does not diminish the attention it receives not only in Zazen, but also e.g. in Zen-inspired martial arts.

[windwalker]

He talks of emptiness,  quotes the heart sutra at 4:20  

 

explaining  the interaction of form and emptiness 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2018 by windwalker

[exorcist_1699]

On 6/8/2017 at 8:35 PM, Marblehead said:

You did that very well, I think.

 

 

I hope you talked to me ? 

[exorcist_1699]

On 5/25/2017 at 3:33 AM, [email protected] said:

My understanding is that Buddhists have lost the ming method some time ago and therefore had to concentrate on heart & mind stabilization, so-called Xing practices. They have gone far in these aspects but this is only one side of the coin.
The reason why they are popular now and in the past times is that their methods are simple and available for the wide auditory.

Rgrds, Ilya

 

Yeah, it is quite a blame of Taoist  on Buddhism . I think any serious  Buddhist should  think about Taoist criticism on Buddhist limitation to Xing practice only .

 

On the other hand , any Taoist  should take it seriously about Buddhist criticism on Taoist attachment to  jing and qi , in fact ,  any post-heavenly mind typed of focusing on jing and qi likely  smother their development  . 

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

 

I hope you talked to me ? 

Yep.  It was you I was speaking to.

 

[exorcist_1699]

Zen's exploring of emptiness is like  a dull and hard process of  digging a well with low water level , only having reached certain point do you find its immense benefits , unfortunately hardly can you  know where it is  ;  in fact, many strange koans are the request of approval  from a junior practitioner  towards a senior master .  On the other hand, Taoist proofs are not limited to spiritual aspects , and can be something physical , so it is easier to follow. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by exorcist_1699

[Marblehead]

What's really difficult is digging a well from the bottom up.

 

[dwai]

This interview with Master Stone is very insightful as well, pertaining to emptiness --

 

https://taiji-forum.com/tai-chi-taiji/tai-chi-interviews/shi-ming/

 

Quote

My taiji teaching uses Chinese philosophy, particularly the Book of Changes, to guide the entire process of training. This process includes three stages; study of the fundamental exercise (jiben gong) which develops one’s root, the taiji form, and advanced practices. These three stages can be summarized in nine words: piao, uplift; zou, movement; jie, connection; hip, waist, shoulder; and dispersal, the void, and emptiness. Chinese think nine is the greatest number. It represents kong, emptiness, which is a Buddhist concept. Kong doesn’t mean nothingness, where nothing exists. It is an emptiness which produces all things and is attained through cultivation. So I teach taiji through these nine stages, culminating in emptiness.
The beginning stage concentrates on the fundamental exercises which include standing meditation, the spinal exercise tanhai, hip circulations, and the cyclic arm exercise. These prepare one’s ground. They are essential to taiji training.
In practicing the taiji form, there are five levels. The beginning level is the rote repetition of a form; this constitutes the level of most taiji today. The second level is called double-weightedness, shuang zhong, form. Most people don’t know about this stage. In fact, they think double-weightedness is a mistake. But it’s essential to master this stage, otherwise you can’t understand how to direct jin, internal force. Using strength and directing jin are skills of double-weightedness. The taiji principle, “qi, mind, and body all manifest simultaneously,” is really the idea of double-weightedness. When we develop the hips, waist and shoulders in the fundamental exercises, this is work on the level of double-weightedness. It’s all external, you can see it. The inner process you can’t see. In standing meditation, we study piao, uplifting, floating. In the spinal exercise tanhai, we learn zou, change. In the arm exercises we learn jie, connection.
The third level is stillness/movement. There’s a saying, “in movement, it separates; in stillness, it fuses.” Here we enter the taiji state.
The fourth level is to seek stillness in movement. In my movements, there is stillness. When doing hand-pushing, in the midst of swift changes, I am still and quiet.
The fifth level is complete emptiness. There’s no form, nothing. Practice on this level relies solely on the mind. I myself haven’t reached this level. The stage of emptiness is the highest level, which is only attained after long inner work. I’m only at the fourth level.