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Ttc 56 - Talk or not?


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#1 taoteching99

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 09:50 PM

Beautiful quote ☺

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Edited by taoteching99, 16 March 2017 - 09:54 PM.

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#2 Mig

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 01:38 PM

i wonder in the original text says yan=talk and not the verb Dao?


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#3 thelerner

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 01:39 PM

hmnn, then how does anyone learn anything? 

 

and what happens if one who knows, talks?

does that make truth reverse itself? or

do they get whacked by those in silence?


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#4 dawei

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 04:14 PM

i wonder in the original text says yan=talk and not the verb Dao?

 

 
Guodian: - Tr. Hendricks
知之者弗言, Those who understand it say nothing about it;   
言之者弗知     those who talk about it do not understand it.
 
MWA & B:  Tr. Hendricks
知者弗言  Those who know don't talk about it; 
﹦者弗知  those who talk don't know it 
 
HSG & Wang Bi:   Tr. Flowing Hands
知者不言, Those who are enlightened, sit in silence.
言者不知    Those who think they know something, are forever talking.
 
 
HSG notes:
Those who know, value action rather than speech.
A team of four horses cannot overtake the tongue. More words mean more sorrow.
 
Lok Sang Ho notes:
Literally, “Those who are wise do not speak; those who speak are not wise.” The word “much” is added in each of these clauses to revive Laozi’s obvious true meaning.
 
Derek Lin notes:
The truly wise understand the Tao, so they know that actions speak louder than words. Rather than to talk endlessly about what they should do or how they should be, they put their time and effort into the actual doing and being.
On the other hand, those who prattle on and on only demonstrate that they know little about the Tao. They spend so much time talking about what they think they know that they end up not putting any of it into actual practice. Without real-life applications, the Tao means nothing.
 
 
Moss Roberts notes:
The word yan, “say,” in line 1 is mainly used to refer to organized speech, the statement of a position. The sage avoids exposing his advocacy; he takes no side and thus does not become one of a pair of opposites.

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#5 Marblehead

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 04:39 PM

I shouldn't say anything, should I?


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#6 cheya

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 04:43 PM

Well.... now that you've said that, of course you should!

(Curiosity killed the cat? :D )


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like the stream clings to the earth."
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#7 Apeiron&Peiron

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 04:48 PM

But not the gorilla.


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#8 Marblehead

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Posted 17 March 2017 - 05:04 PM

Well, anyway, my understanding of this concept is referring direct to the label "Tao" (Dao).

 

Again, as mentioned just a little bit ago in another thread, to speak of something that is undefinable is just blowing air.  But we can speak of the processes.


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#9 Jeff

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:08 AM

Chapter 56 in full context...

Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.
Close your mouth.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.
Those who have achieved this state
Do not distinguish between friends and enemies,
Between good and harm, between honor and disgrace.
This is the highest state of being.

To me, the "talking/not talking" in the broader context is about using the mind and thinking too much. Quiet it all and be like the dust of the earth (fully grounded). As the verse says, this is the primal union...
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No worries... I am only speaking on my own authority.

#10 Apeiron&Peiron

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 07:22 AM

Seeing that after practicing with traditional methods, it seems to be more obvious that it is an instruction for training exercises.

 

The first says "those who know don't speak, those who speak don't know"; it is apt because you will only know if you train---not if you spend all day talking about training.

 

Close your mouth and guard your senses. You close the mouth to close the ren and du circuits and you guard the senses so you can "find the center" (which is done when you begin the training). Temper your sharpness and simplify your problems; on the way to getting to emptiness and finding the center, you will drop the contents of your mind. Mask your brightness; the light of vitality should appear, but it should be brought inwards so that it is fixed in its original cavity (in the head).

 

Be at one with the dust of the earth. This is a 5 elements description of the above process: fire and wood are united when the mind is stilled; metal and water are united when the body is stilled; the fire-wood amalgam and the metal-water amalgam are united when you actually enter into meditation and the product of them being united is the element of earth.

 

This is the primal union. Those who have achieved this state do not distinguish between friends and enemies, between good and harm, between honor and disgrace (actually, their awareness is entirely inside---so they don't distinguish any of the juxtaposed external factors). This is the highest state of being----it is a state where the body is consolidated as earth and can actually harmonize with heaven (in accord with actually doing real alchemy).

 

Seeing it after putting time into theory and practice, this makes immense sense to me.

 

Edit: spelling


Edited by Apeiron&Peiron, 18 March 2017 - 08:12 AM.

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"The art of progress is to preserve order amid change and to preserve change amid order"
 
-A.N. Whitehead

#11 OldSaint

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 08:17 AM

Chapter 56 in full context...

Those who know do not talk.
Those who talk do not know.
Close your mouth.
Guard your senses.
Temper your sharpness.
Simplify your problems.
Mask your brightness.
Be at one with the dust of the earth.
This is primal union.
Those who have achieved this state
Do not distinguish between friends and enemies,
Between good and harm, between honor and disgrace.
This is the highest state of being.

To me, the "talking/not talking" in the broader context is about using the mind and thinking too much. Quiet it all and be like the dust of the earth (fully grounded). As the verse says, this is the primal union...

 

 

:wub:  :wub:


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#12 Kar3n

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 08:31 AM

Beautiful quote ☺


chop wood, carry water...

shhh...
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Recognize mind has never once had a thought that wasn't your own choice already.
Mindfully choose compassionate thoughts that are a pleasure to experience and the urge to silence thought passes.
With no urges, the need to cling to some thought passes with it.
Unlimited love,
-Bud

#13 Starjumper

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 02:09 PM

Seeing that after practicing with traditional methods, it seems to be more obvious that it is an instruction for training exercises.

 

The first says "those who know don't speak, those who speak don't know"; it is apt because you will only know if you train---not if you spend all day talking about training.

 

This sentiment about not speaking seems to be in alignment with the other chapter which has the phrase, "the sage teaches without speaking".  How can the sage teach without speaking?


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#14 Marblehead

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 03:58 PM

 How can the sage teach without speaking?

By setting an example?


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#15 Starjumper

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 04:12 PM

By setting an example?

 

That's one way.

 

I know another answer but I'm not supposed to say  =)


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#16 Apeiron&Peiron

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 04:13 PM

This sentiment about not speaking seems to be in alignment with the other chapter which has the phrase, "the sage teaches without speaking". How can the sage teach without speaking?

Good question. I bet they could directly manipulate your energy from wuji. I first did alchemy exercises spontaneously 10 years ago; it was like getting a sort of tactile suggestion for what to do.

Now that I am doing the exercises again, I can get to a state that seems closer to the wuji dimension. I don't know if the guide when I first picked up these exercises was someone else or if it was resonance from a different time when I would learn them formally.

Edit: the smartphone turned wuji into wiki

Edited by Apeiron&Peiron, 18 March 2017 - 04:15 PM.

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"The art of progress is to preserve order amid change and to preserve change amid order"
 
-A.N. Whitehead




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