Jump to content


Photo

Mair 6:1


  • Please log in to reply
85 replies to this topic

#1 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36916 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 06 March 2017 - 02:25 AM

To know the actions of heaven and to know the actions of man, that's the ultimate!  She who knows the actions of heaven will live in accordance with heaven.  She who knows the actions of men can nourish what is unknown to her intellect with what is known to her intellect.  Thus she can live out the years allotted to her by heaven and not die midway.  This is the height of knowledge.

However, there is still some difficulty.  Namely, knowledge has to depend on something for its consequent accuracy, but that which it depends on is particularly unstable.  How do we know that what we attribute to heaven may not be due to man, and that what we attribute to man may not be due to heaven?  Only when there is a true man is there true knowledge.

Only one whose knowledge can ascend the heights of the Way can be like this.

What is a true man?  The true man of old did not oppose the minority, did not strive for heroic accomplishments, and did not scheme over affairs.  Such being the case, he did not regret it when he made a mistake nor feel smug when he was right.  Such being the case, he could climb high without trembling, enter water without getting soaked, and enter fire without feeling hot.

The true man of old did not dream when he slept and did not worry when he was awake.  His food was not savory, his breathing was deep.  The breathing of the true man is from his heels, the breathing of the common man is from his throat.  The words of those who unwillingly yield catch in their throats as though they were retching.  Those whose desires are deep-seated will have shallow natural reserves.

The true man of old knew neither fondness for life nor aversion to death, was neither elated by going forth nor reluctant to return.  Casually he went and casually he came.  He neither forgot {{An important word in the Chuang Tzu that became a technical term in later Taoism, especially for those schools that emphasized meditation.  It signifies the emptying of the mind that brings utter calm and peace.}} what his beginning had been nor sought what his end would be.  Happily he received and forgetfully he returned.  This is what is meant by not detracting from the Way with the mind, not assisting heaven with the human.  This is what we call a true man.

Such being the case, his mind was forgetful, his visage calm, his forehead beamingly broad.  Austere as autumn, warm as spring, his joy and anger were in touch with the four seasons.  He was compatible with all things but no one knew his limits.  {{Therefore the sage, in his conduct of war, might forfeit his state, but would not lose the hearts of his people.  His benefits might extend for ten thousand generations, but it would not be for love of man.  Therefore, he who delights in linking up with things is not a sage.  He who is partial is not humane.  He who is negligent of the seasons is not worthy.  He who cannot perceive the linkage between benefit and harm is not a gentleman.  He who loses himself through pursuit of fame is not a nobleman.  He who destroys himself through untruthfulness is not a freeman.  Men such as Hu Puhsieh, Wu Kuang, Poyi, Shuch'i, Master Chi, Hsŭ Yu, Chi T'o, and Shent'u Ti were all servants of freemen.  They strove to delight others, but did nothing to delight themselves.  All of these individuals were unbending moralists who were executed, ended up committing suicide, or went mad.}}

The true man of old
Was towering in stature but never collapsed,
Seemed insufficient but accepted nothing;
Aloofly independent but not obstinate,
Amply empty but not ostentatious,
Merry, as though he were happy,
Demurring, as though he were compelled,
Suffused with an alluring charm,
Endowed with an arresting integrity,
Stern, as though he were worldly,
Arrogant, as though he were uncontrollable,
Reticent, as though he preferred to clam up,
Absent-minded, as though he forgot what to say.

Thus his likes were reduced to one and his dislikes were also reduced to one.  His "one" was one and his "not one" was also one.  Being "one," he was a follower of heaven.  Being "not one," he was a follower of man.  He in whom neither heaven nor man is victorious over the other is called a true man.

Edited by Marblehead, 06 March 2017 - 02:26 AM.

  • Starjumper, phil48 and morning dew said thanks for this

I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#2 Taoist Texts

Taoist Texts

    Joss Beaumont, espionnage et chataigne.

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 2163 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Enka

Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:10 AM

He in whom neither heaven nor man is victorious over the other is called a true man.

 

 

From the previous chapters i gathered that Heaven was supposed to prevail.


世人个个学长年,不悟年年在目前,我得宛丘平易法,只将食粥致神仙。

#3 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36916 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:18 AM

From the previous chapters i gathered that Heaven was supposed to prevail.

 

Eventually, in the long run, it does.  However, in the short run we still must live in the world of man.

 

While we are still here it is both.  One foot in the Manifest and one foot in the Mystery.


  • Taoist Texts said thanks for this

I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#4 Taoist Texts

Taoist Texts

    Joss Beaumont, espionnage et chataigne.

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 2163 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Enka

Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:21 AM

She who knows the actions of men can nourish what is unknown to her intellect with what is known to her intellect. 

 

 

This is curious too.


世人个个学长年,不悟年年在目前,我得宛丘平易法,只将食粥致神仙。

#5 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36916 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:58 AM

This is curious too.

 

Agree.  I think it is poorly worded.  The point being that knowing the knowable allow us to deal with the Manifest.  The unknown to the intellect is the experience (inner) of the Mystery.  As has been discussed before, we cannot now the Mystery but it can be experienced.


  • Taoist Texts said thanks for this

I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#6 Stosh

Stosh

    ¿

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 5466 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 March 2017 - 04:26 AM

Do as you choose, But I just want to say for anyone who wants to separate wheat from chaff, this segment is so screwed it should be burned and the ashes hidden. IMO. :)Carry on
  • Taoist Texts said thanks for this

#7 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36916 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 06 March 2017 - 03:49 PM

Well, at least we get the opportunity to think.  That's good.


I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#8 Stosh

Stosh

    ¿

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 5466 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 March 2017 - 04:24 AM

Well, at least we get the opportunity to think.  That's good.

Go right ahead suit yourself, really! I dont want to halt review if ones gaining any total benefit. I just dont want to be implicitly endorsing translations I dont like by being politically correct and keeping mum when them parts surface.
Why? one could legitimately ask. To be politically correct you garner less animosity, and others are less bummed out.
True. I agree it can be raining on parades. But , Such political correctness predominating, leaves those inclined to critical examination of the texts unsupported, they may just come to the conclusion that everyone is covering up the flaws, or pretending they understand that which really IS contorted.
In recent days Ive seen several people giving up on finding the good stuff, because its buried in BS. Which is a shame because there is a lot of good stuff ,potentially new ideas, and support of worthwhile pursuit.
  • Marblehead and Taoist Texts said thanks for this

#9 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36916 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 07 March 2017 - 05:46 AM

I never spoke to your criticism of the translation.

 

I actually find it constructive that we are able to openly express our dislike of how certain sections are poorly worded.  We have done a fair amount of mental exercise in order to do that.

 

I am posting the sections without comment intentionally.  I think the feedback being submitted is very useful.  And I have never tried to justify how Mair translated until after  some one else has commented.

 

But at least we are doing the study.  The translation being used was beyond my control.


  • dawei and Stosh said thanks for this

I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#10 dawei

dawei

    Dao Bum

  • Admin
  • Pip
  • 8747 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:34 PM

But at least we are doing the study.  The translation being used was beyond my control.

 

I've come to not appreciate Mair's take  <_<

 

Maybe we should of done as we did with DDJ and put a few side by side... not sure now  ;)

 

But here is Eno's notes to this section:

 

This description of the “True Man” – a term that appears only in Chapter 6 of the Inner Chapters, is not easy to make full sense of, but the main message is clear. The chapter sets up a duality between Heaven (what is natural and spontaneous) and man (what is social and premeditated), and while celebrating Heaven, its depiction of the True Man as an embodiment of a string of seeming contradictions creates as a model the person who is able to exemplify a second-level unity of the two realms, unifying both unity and disunity themselves. The strategy of seeking a higher level perspective that will unite contradictions in a way that words cannot recalls the method of Chapter 2.

 

Found this line interesting..

 

Mair:

 Being "one," he was a follower of heaven.  Being "not one," he was a follower of man.

 

Eno:

In his unity he was a follower of Heaven, in his disunity he was a follower of man.

 

Burton:

In being one, he was acting as a companion of Heaven. In not being one, he was acting as a companion of man. 

  • cheya and Marblehead said thanks for this

#11 Stosh

Stosh

    ¿

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 5466 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:52 PM

 

I've come to not appreciate Mair's take  <_<

 

Maybe we should of done as we did with DDJ and put a few side by side... not sure now  ;)

 

But here is Eno's notes to this section:

 

This description of the “True Man” – a term that appears only in Chapter 6 of the Inner Chapters, is not easy to make full sense of, but the main message is clear. The chapter sets up a duality between Heaven (what is natural and spontaneous) and man (what is social and premeditated), and while celebrating Heaven, its depiction of the True Man as an embodiment of a string of seeming contradictions creates as a model the person who is able to exemplify a second-level unity of the two realms, unifying both unity and disunity themselves. The strategy of seeking a higher level perspective that will unite contradictions in a way that words cannot recalls the method of Chapter 2.

 

Found this line interesting..

 

Mair:

 Being "one," he was a follower of heaven.  Being "not one," he was a follower of man.

 

Eno:

In his unity he was a follower of Heaven, in his disunity he was a follower of man.

 

Burton:

In being one, he was acting as a companion of Heaven. In not being one, he was acting as a companion of man. 

 

And is the point confusingly that Mair's version is the best? and the other two suck?... which they do. IMO :)



#12 Stosh

Stosh

    ¿

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 5466 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:38 PM

On the path of translation, theres zero reason to maintain the elusive language. Its just not in classical chinese anymore, we dont have to be obtuse to prevent ticked warlords from cutting heads off, and nobody actually speaks classical chinese anymore with the fluency to have all the references being self evident.
"Being attuned to the unified nature of the world , a wise man avoids the self destructive mental pitfalls consequential to a polemically divided worldview most folks have , keeping them befuddled and on an emotional rollercoaster."
Stoshzi circa 2017.

Edited by Stosh, 07 March 2017 - 03:45 PM.

  • cheya said thanks for this

#13 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36916 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:44 PM

I think it is sad that Lin Yutang did not do a complete translation of the Chuang Tzu.  Because of this I prefer Watson's translation.


I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#14 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36916 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:47 PM

 

Maybe we should of done as we did with DDJ and put a few side by side... not sure now  ;)

 

I hear you.  Cause and effect brought us to where we are now.


I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!


#15 Stosh

Stosh

    ¿

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 5466 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:48 PM

I think it is sad that Lin Yutang did not do a complete translation of the Chuang Tzu.  Because of this I prefer Watson's translation.

Why arent you doing Watsons, or composite of the two ,, Watson supplementing Lin ? then.

#16 Marblehead

Marblehead

    The Wondering Taoist

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 36916 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida, USA
  • Interests:Short Skirts and Bikinis

Posted 07 March 2017 - 04:14 PM

Why arent you doing Watsons, or composite of the two ,, Watson supplementing Lin ? then.

 

Because the study was started using Mair because of something he said in his introduction.

 

I picked it up in order to keep the study going. 


  • cheya, dawei and Rara said thanks for this

I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



Peace & Contentment!





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users