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#17 Stosh

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:32 PM

http://ctext.org/zhu...plete/ens#n2750

 

 

Well CZ uses Confy as an alter-ego for himself, often as a foil, but equally often as someone who learned from Lao-zi himself and had doubts resolved. So if he is not an ultimate man, but at least he is the second best to it.

 

In this story Duke met an ultimate one

 

 

but he left. Now Confucius fills his shoes.

 

 

The unease WAS coming from recognizing his inadequacy when Confy explained him whats what. But NOW with Confy at his side he has a friend and feels better.

 

Note the timing (corrected by me)

I was hoping you would find it easy to just say where you did or didnt agree ,  looking at the text you directed me , I found this part here  "and to pay good heed to the accounts of the people concerned." 

So you think Conf. told the Duke not to pay attention to his people and just ignore them?being buddies with Conf instead? 

 

I don't in fact think Conf is being used as an alter ego , personally, I think he was being used to delineate some fine lines of distinction about the proper interp. of certain aspects of the dao Cz himself was promoting., I cant see why he would set Conf. as a proper example of a sage , Its like saying ,

" Here , Im going to write the philosophy of a wrong guy instead of telling you the right stuff." which doesnt make sense to do. To me.  

 

There is indeed a big difference to the presentations by the two translations, though.


Edited by Stosh, 16 February 2017 - 02:38 PM.

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#18 Stosh

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 02:51 PM

Father down in the other translation , there seems perhaps to be a return to the advice of Cz , it differs I think from that of Conf. If I can show that theres a difference , would you agree that Conf. is not being set up as a good example , but as a wrong one? 


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#19 Taoist Texts

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Posted 16 February 2017 - 10:31 PM

I was hoping you would find it easy to just say where you did or didnt agree 

 

Well i do agree with what you say, i am just saying that there are two sides to it)

 

looking at the text you directed me , I found this part here  "and to pay good heed to the accounts of the people concerned." 

So you think Conf. told the Duke not to pay attention to his people and just ignore them?being buddies with Conf instead? 

 

 

 Legge and Mair ('worried over the welfare of the people') mistranslated 执民之纪,而忧其死 which says 'I upheld people's laws and was saddened by their deaths'. In the story Conf does not give any direct advice, he just explained why Nag's non-doing was so efficacious, and what distinguished him from other men:  he has some kind of inner potential, 'wholeness of abilities'.

 

 

I don't in fact think Conf is being used as an alter ego , personally, I think he was being used to delineate some fine lines of distinction about the proper interp. of certain aspects of the dao Cz himself was promoting.

 

 

That is entirely possible, the story is ambiguous enough to be interpreted either way.

 

 

If I can show that theres a difference , would you agree that Conf. is not being set up as a good example , but as a wrong one? 

 

 

Of course i would)


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#20 Taoist Texts

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 02:00 AM

@TT... would you comment on the blue sections.

Hey). I will try.

 

Of the women who had seen him, more than ten petitioned their parents, saying, 'I would rather be his concubine than another man's wife.' 

 

 

Firstly here is a thoroughly Confucian idea that a well governed state is based on a well governed patriarchal family. Women flock to Nag because he is an ideal husband and therefore will make a great ruler.

 

When Emperor Yao became old, he became distressed over the fact that his 9 sons were all useless, only knew how to spend their days enjoying themselves with wine and song. Yao asked his administers, the Four Mountains, to propose a suitable successor. Yao then heard of Shun's tales. Wise Yao did not want to simply believe in the tales about Shun, so he decided to test Shun. Yao gave a district to Shun to govern and married his two daughters to him, with a small dowry of a new house and some money. Though given an office and money, Shun still lived humbly. He continued to work in the fields every day. Shun even managed to convince his two brides, the two princesses, Yao's daughters, named Ehuang (Fairy Radiance) and Nüying (Maiden Bloom),[16] who were used to good living, to live humbly and work along the people. 

https://en.wikipedia...ki/Emperor_Shun

 

 

Secondly, him being attractive  to the brides hints at his integral virility as a magic De potential. Note further in the story mention of the newlywed husbands who are banned from the palace service, because their virility is not whole. Significantly, Nad is a hunchback, which is a fertility archetype.

 

 

Kokopelli - Wikipedia
Kokopelli is a fertility deity, usually depicted as a humpbacked...

 

 

 

 

Thirdly, his deformity is an archetypal sign of being a chosen one s, e.g.

 

Among the Chagga in East Africa, the physically handicapped were perceived as pacifiers of the evil spirits. Hence, care was taken not to harm the physically handicapped. Among the citizens of Benin (formerly Dahomey in West Africa), constables were selected from those with obvious physical handicaps.

In some communities in Benin, children born with anomalies were seen as protected by supernatural forces. As such they were accepted in the community because they were believed to bring good luck (Wright 1960).

...

the Ga from Accra region in Ghana, treated the feeble-minded with awe.They believed the retarded were the reincarnation of a deity. Hence, they were always treated with great kindness, gentleness and patience (Field 1937).

http://dsq-sds.org/a.../view/3197/3068

 

All in all, ZZ's yearning for these magic personas, mutilated on the outside but whole on the inside is the yearning to return back into the golden age, when people were one with the gods. The external mutilation or disability of these ultimate men is just a symbol of the societal corruption in the later times, a visible stigma of the humanity torn from its golden roots.


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世人个个学长年,不悟年年在目前,我得宛丘平易法,只将食粥致神仙。

#21 Taoist Texts

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 03:48 AM

为天子之诸御,不爪翦,不穿耳;娶妻者止于外,不得复使。形全犹足以为尔,而况全德之人乎!

 

The palace ladies of the son of heaven do not trim their nails nor do they pierce their ears.  Men who are newly married must stay outside of the court and may no longer perform their official duties. 

If the wholeness of physical form is sufficient to make the ruler be so finicky, how much more should he be attentive to people whose integrity is whole!  

 

 

The palace dames and servants were supposed to keep their bodies whole lest the injury commutes onto the king by way of the vicarious magic. 

How come the mutilated persons are containers of the whole De then?

The logic of it is never explicated by ZZ, being something that goes without saying for him, but a mystery to the modern reader. What happens is that these avatars of De, on their reincarnation into the mundane, De-less world, come into a clash with it, suffering to be either deformed at birth or mutilated as a punishment for being too righteous. That is why their very  deformity is a sign of them being filled with De.


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#22 Stosh

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 04:12 AM

Tt, taking these things together, ,If I demonstrated the difference, I think you would consider it to be be just another ambiguous rendering from the text. I think the text ultimately was was written to make a point, and so I consider the alternatives red herrings. Why would the duke face the south?
I imagine in a rulers court, traditional virtue is the norm, beauty and physical wholeness,homogenaity, considered to coincide with that. To be distinctive and to clearly show ones specialness is a threat to the ruler, even if it is great in virtue.. so virtue to the court is homogeneity and weak virtue elsewhere.

Edited by Stosh, 17 February 2017 - 04:22 AM.

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#23 Stosh

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 08:28 AM

And who is it , that is being compared to a dead sow? :)


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#24 Taoist Texts

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 08:38 AM

  Why would the duke face the south? 

 

 

Traditionally, a dwelling was oriented with entrance in the southern wall to catch more sun, and the indoor space was ranked, i.e the master of the house occupied the pride of place, the warmest and the sunniest, by the northern wall, hence facing south. In political parlance 'to sit facing the south' came to mean the immovability of the imperial macrocosm maintained by the physical position of the king's body. 


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世人个个学长年,不悟年年在目前,我得宛丘平易法,只将食粥致神仙。

#25 Taoist Texts

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 08:39 AM

And who is it , that is being compared to a dead sow? :)

 

the regular people


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#26 Stosh

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 08:52 AM

the regular people

Really !? How do you come to see it that way?



#27 Taoist Texts

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 09:01 AM

Duke's question about Nag was 

 

Surely there must have been something that distinguished him from other men.

 

 

Confucius explains that  Nag possessed a certain substance within that the regular person do not have despite their body being whole, just like a dead sow whose form was whole but the substance gone.

 

also compare to

 

Cultivating Perfection: Mysticism and Self-transformation in Early ...
Louis Komjathy - 2007 - ‎History
 The early Quanzhen adepts frequently refer to ordinary human beings as “skeletons” (kulou), “walking corpses” (xingshi ), “running bones” (zougu)

 


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世人个个学长年,不悟年年在目前,我得宛丘平易法,只将食粥致神仙。

#28 Stosh

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 09:45 AM

 

Duke's question about Nag was 

 

Confucius explains that  Nag possessed a certain substance within that the regular person do not have despite their body being whole, just like a dead sow whose form was whole but the substance gone.

 

also compare to

 

Cultivating Perfection: Mysticism and Self-transformation in Early ...
Louis Komjathy - 2007 - ‎History
 The early Quanzhen adepts frequently refer to ordinary human beings as “skeletons” (kulou), “walking corpses” (xingshi ), “running bones” (zougu)

 

Ah! now I seee 



#29 Rara

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 10:43 AM

Clarify for me Tt, is this an excerpt from Cz, and the subject is Confucius , and the Duke is feeling insecure, and this is an 'uncontested' passage. So you feel Cz is indeed promoting Confucius' idea of an ultimate man , doesn't that ride against the ordinary antagonistic stance between the two personages? and if this is from the Analects or something , why is the unease of the Duke 'not a potential detractor for one considering 'ultimate man' habits.


The more I read these works, the more I understand that, especially in the outer chapters, there is some compromise between Taoism and Confucianism.

As for this chapter, I will continue to sit back and watch everyone's opinions unfold. I'm not sure if we'll ever know for sure as each translation reads slightly differently...
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#30 Stosh

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 11:02 AM

The more I read these works, the more I understand that, especially in the outer chapters, there is some compromise between Taoism and Confucianism.

As for this chapter, I will continue to sit back and watch everyone's opinions unfold. I'm not sure if we'll ever know for sure as each translation reads slightly differently...

Ironic , I'm coming to see the exact reverse, maybe we'll end up in the middle.

I look at the end of the piece , where Chuang just conversationally says what he personally thinks about the scenario just presented , ( I figure the author would know what he thought about his own chapter.)

Though I realize that someone can come to their own conclusions on the presentation itself, like Confu certainly would. 

Thing is , no one is saying that whats being said about the words attributed to Confu are in fact incorrect, so I have to figure Chuang is being accurate at least in his paraphrase. 

 

Reminds me of Back to school with Rodney Dangerfield

from wikipedia excerpt on it..

" Thornton prefers partying to studying. He hires a team of professionals to complete his assignments, including author Kurt Vonnegut, to write a paper on Kurt Vonnegut for literature class. To Thornton's surprise, a disappointed Diane, recognizing the fraud,( but not the authorship) gives Thornton an F on his paper, telling him that she will not accept work from him that was written by someone else, and adding that whoever did write the paper doesn't know the first thing about Kurt Vonnegut."


Edited by Stosh, 17 February 2017 - 12:22 PM.

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#31 Marblehead

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 12:21 PM

And who is it , that is being compared to a dead sow? :)

 

The sow when she was alive.


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I reserve the right to be wrong.

YIN-YANG.jpg I reserve the right to change my mind. Anarchy4.jpg



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#32 Rara

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Posted 18 February 2017 - 07:21 AM

Ironic , I'm coming to see the exact reverse, maybe we'll end up in the middle.
I look at the end of the piece , where Chuang just conversationally says what he personally thinks about the scenario just presented , ( I figure the author would know what he thought about his own chapter.)
Though I realize that someone can come to their own conclusions on the presentation itself, like Confu certainly would.
Thing is , no one is saying that whats being said about the words attributed to Confu are in fact incorrect, so I have to figure Chuang is being accurate at least in his paraphrase.

Reminds me of Back to school with Rodney Dangerfield
from wikipedia excerpt on it..
" Thornton prefers partying to studying. He hires a team of professionals to complete his assignments, including author Kurt Vonnegut, to write a paper on Kurt Vonnegut for literature class. To Thornton's surprise, a disappointed Diane, recognizing the fraud,( but not the authorship) gives Thornton an F on his paper, telling him that she will not accept work from him that was written by someone else, and adding that whoever did write the paper doesn't know the first thing about Kurt Vonnegut."

I punched out a response to this and when I sent it, I got an error saying the site was offline. Otherwise, my phone doesn't seem to like signing out of TTB anymore. I am forever at one with the forum :D

The basics of what I said though is yes, I have also had that sort of idea before as well. On my first reading, I actually thought that ZZ was using Confuse Us (sorry...continuing with the pet names given to the man, I couldn't resist) as a tool for making his point. Perhaps for satirical purposes and to wind Confucianists up.

I could imagine the annoyance among Confectionists (sorry) if Zhuangzi was calling Confucius a converted Taoist.

Jokes aside though, a very good point.

Edit: Though my point still stands RE some of the outer chapters. Some parts jumped out at me as quite contradictory to the inner chapters in some places. I'd find an example but I'd have to backtrack.

Edited by Rara, 18 February 2017 - 07:27 AM.

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