Why must the Dao De Jhing be translated right?

[Stosh]

If one believes "the point" of the journey is a destination, one reaches the end of the trail. If, instead, the point of the journey is the journey itself, one's perspective is very different. This is not to say that the path doesn't include many breathtaking vistas and lots of little details of profound impact but that soaking these opportunities in is the purpose of the journey.

 

I spend a fair amount of in the woods, often by myself. I sometimes sit near popular trails (sometimes near points of interest and sometimes near the trailheads) and observe the tourists outfitted with the latest high-tech gear & apparel as they loudly & boisterously charge the mountain, so absorbed in the pursuit of a destination that they don't even notice the lilies of the valley and the fiddlehead ferns they crush beneath their feet or the babbling brooks they barge past on their mission to "see the sights." They finally reach their destinations, spend a few minutes taking pictures, and then charge back down the hill in pursuit of their next accomplishment.

 

This help?

 

 

 

EDIT: Picked a better flower choice...

Well philosophically that's fine , I get the sentiment , but its not what I'm driving at, the thread is about whether correct translation is important ,, and instead of inserting my opinion , I'm just allowing the testimony of someone else , or everyone else to hold sway , ,,, to Uncover some things. If you allow me to continue.

I'm trying to get answers that are specific to the question , regardless of the perspective of the answer. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Stosh

[Brian]

Well philosophically that's fine , I get the sentiment , but its now what I'm driving at, the thread is about whether correct translation is important ,, and instead of inserting my opinion , I'm just allowing the testimony of someone else , or everyone else to hold sway , ,,, to Uncover some things. If you allow me to continue.

I'm trying to get answers that are specific to the question , regardless of the perspective of the answer.

Sure, faithful translation is valuable because the integrity of the writing is otherwise lost -- and, in reality, totally lossless translation is not possible for anything beyond the mundane or trivial so the message necessarily become diminished through the process of changing languages even if the losses are subtle. It is my observation, however, that the DDJ is most useful as a reminder of the journey so far rather than as a map by which the future journey is to be charted. The merit of the teachings unveils in a series of "Ah-Ha" moments in which something we read earlier suddenly "fits". Agonizing over the details in pursuit of some great discovery is counterproductive. Instead, reading a rich & complex work (perhaps revisiting it occasionally) and then letting it percolate until the lessons emerge in their own time as our accumulating experiences & changing awareness open the door can be very rewarding. Absorb, rest, live -- the rest takes care of itself in accordance with our own unfolding potentials.

[Jeff]

Sure, faithful translation is valuable because the integrity of the writing is otherwise lost -- and, in reality, totally lossless translation is not possible for anything beyond the mundane or trivial so the message necessarily become diminished through the process of changing languages even if the losses are subtle. It is my observation, however, that the DDJ is most useful as a reminder of the journey so far rather than as a map by which the future journey is to be charted. The merit of the teachings unveils in a series of "Ah-Ha" moments in which something we read earlier suddenly "fits". Agonizing over the details in pursuit of some great discovery is counterproductive. Instead, reading a rich & complex work (perhaps revisiting it occasionally) and then letting it percolate until the lessons emerge in their own time as our accumulating experiences & changing awareness open the door can be very rewarding. Absorb, rest, live -- the rest takes care of itself in accordance with our own unfolding potentials.

I would agree with what you have said, but I think Stosh also raises some good points. I noticed in your story about the hikers, you also seemed to use trails. And a maps of the trails in the woods can be useful. Personally, I would say that the DDJ trail map goes far deeper into the woods than most maps, so it is a shame when copies of map mistake many natural landmarks. And a much bigger shame when a map mistakenly tells you that you have reached to the top of the mountain hike, when it is really only a first ridge.

[silent thunder]

I'll be roasting some Portabello mushrooms on that fire... and the tea is steeping by the pool.

Now, who brought the drums and we can get a circle going?

[Brian]

I would agree with what you have said, but I think Stosh also raises some good points. I noticed in your story about the hikers, you also seemed to use trails. And a maps of the trails in the woods can be useful. Personally, I would say that the DDJ trail map goes far deeper into the woods than most maps, so it is a shame when copies of map mistake many natural landmarks. And a much bigger shame when a map mistakenly tells you that you have reached to the top of the mountain hike, when it is really only a first ridge.

When I am not alone, I am more inclined to bushwhack. When I am in the forest by myself, however, I currently do generally stick to fairly well-trafficked areas. This is a purely practical consideration as a husband and father -- there are people to whom I have voluntary attachments, commitments I chose to make to them decades ago and it would be unkind and irresponsible of me to unnecessarily endanger their futures by striking off alone when they haven't chosen to follow the same spiritual path as me. When I was young and single, I would often strike off into the mountains without map or trail, sometimes for several days. When I am no longer a key part of someone else's life, I will likely resume that immersion because then something like breaking my leg & dying of exposure will really only affect me.

 

I completely agree that the journey is largely unmapped. I am often reminded of Tom Bombadil and his relationship with the Old Forest (and with those therein) as well as the verses in Hamlet's soliloquy about "the undiscovered country from whose born no traveler returns..."

[Stosh]

I would agree with what you have said, but I think Stosh also raises some good points. I noticed in your story about the hikers, you also seemed to use trails. And a maps of the trails in the woods can be useful. Personally, I would say that the DDJ trail map goes far deeper into the woods than most maps, so it is a shame when copies of map mistake many natural landmarks. And a much bigger shame when a map mistakenly tells you that you have reached to the top of the mountain hike, when it is really only a first ridge.

I didn't make any points , the chips were 'falling where they may'.

[Stosh]

In fact ! I just wrote this in another thread

 

"IMO Most of Laozi is arranged in explanatory fashion, so one was expected to apprehend rather than learn by osmosis regardless of what Chinese tradition with other texts and subjects may be. "

[Mig]

Is there are a reason why few people talk about commentaries and annotations?

 

--->

 

Not few.

 

Many Chinese scholars wrote a lot of books and commentaries.

 

If you can read Chinese, you will find many.

Could you name few of those? Are those commentaries close to what we read in books today or even in this forum?

[awaken]

http://search.books.com.tw/search/query/key/道德經/cat/all

 

We can find 51 pages of list of DDJ related books in one Taiwanese web book stores.

 

There are 20 books in every pages.

 

Therefore, there are about 1000 books about DDJ.

 

I don't read these books.

 

I read DDJ directly.

 

Actually, I have read DDJ when I was in university.

 

After graduating, I don't read DDJ again.

 

I read other books.

 

These years, I read the Daoist texts.

 

Until now, I came to the website, I read the DDJ again.

 

 

Are those commentaries close to what we read in books today or even in this forum?

--->

 

I don't read these books, so I can't answer your question.

 

I have a friend who is teaching DDJ in university.

 

He doesn't read the Daoist texts.

 

So he has different thoughts from me.

 

I do a lot of practice, but he doesn't.

 

https://www.google.com.tw/amp/yzunews.yzu.edu.tw/speach/amp/

Edited March 11, 2017 by awaken

[Mig]

http://search.books.com.tw/search/query/key/道德經/cat/all

 

We can find 51 pages of list of DDJ related books in one Taiwanese web book stores.

 

There are 20 books in every pages.

 

Therefore, there are about 1000 books about DDJ.

 

I don't read these books.

 

I read DDJ directly.

 

Actually, I have read DDJ when I was in university.

 

After graduating, I don't read DDJ again.

 

I read other books.

 

These years, I read the Daoist texts.

 

Until now, I came to the website, I read the DDJ again.

 

 

Are those commentaries close to what we read in books today or even in this forum?

--->

 

I don't read these books, so I can't answer your question.

 

I have a friend who is teaching DDJ in university.

 

He doesn't read the Daoist texts.

 

So he has different thoughts from me.

 

I do a lot of practice, but he doesn't.

 

https://www.google.com.tw/amp/yzunews.yzu.edu.tw/speach/amp/

Thank you. I understand there are a lot of books in Chinese though I would imagine that there should be an authoritative scholar book that you may recommend based on your experience and readings.

[flowing hands]

You will not find any enlightenment in scholarly books, you must use your heart and cultivate the self; become desire less,, truly empty, selfless at one with the Dao. In this state you may find a true understanding.

[awaken]

Thank you. I understand there are a lot of books in Chinese though I would imagine that there should be an authoritative scholar book that you may recommend based on your experience and readings.

I don't think There is an authoritative scholar book.

 

Everyone can show their personal view.

 

Actually, I don't read these books.

 

I just guess there is no such version exist.

 

If you want to know, you can buy these 1000 books and read all of them.

 

Maybe you can find one.

 

Ha, but I don't want to do that.

 

Waste time a lot.

Edited March 12, 2017 by awaken

[silent thunder]

I suspect that no such definitive book exists and that the books that do exist, were probably finally written by folks who had read many of the other commentary books and found them unsatisfactory and decided it was up to them to try and write the book they were looking for...

[Gerry]

I'd rather see newer/other versions... folks can go back to the other study to see those other translations as they want.    And I tend away from 'popular' authors.

 

Here would be my five:

 

Stephen Mitchell, 1991

 

 

I have always like the Witter Bynner.

 

The general question always makes me wonder why, or how, the translations affect anyone's understanding of the Tao.  Mitchell's first verse starts "The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao".

 

Words hold no magic here.

[Gerry]

Is there are a reason why few people talk about commentaries and annotations?

 

--->

 

Not few.

 

Many Chinese scholars wrote a lot of books and commentaries.

 

If you can read Chinese, you will find many.

 

 

How do these affect your personal understanding, relationship, with the Tao?

[Gerry]

Back to the topic:

 

If we don't get a correctly translated version of the TTC we could very likely end up with a totally wrong view of Taoism just as the Hippies did in the late 1960s.

 

As an old hippie, can you expand this?

[Gerry]

I don't think There is an authoritative scholar book.

 

Everyone can show their personal view.

 

Actually, I don't read these books.

 

I just guess there is no such version exist.

 

If you want to know, you can buy these 1000 books and read all of them.

 

Maybe you can find one.

 

Ha, but I don't want to do that.

 

Waste time a lot.

 

I agree with you.  Words cannot tell you what they cannot express.

 

"Tao is."  is my personal focus.  Translations of words can confuse me in my apprehension of Tao.  Still there are translations that "sing" to me.

[Mig]

I agree with you.  Words cannot tell you what they cannot express.

 

"Tao is."  is my personal focus.  Translations of words can confuse me in my apprehension of Tao.  Still there are translations that "sing" to me.

I don't understand, you say words can confuse you and still there are translation that sing to you. There are certain concepts that are hard to translate because some cultural meaning that are foreign to us but overall the message in each chapter can only be understood by the words and the message encoded. If I don't have a commentary, I don't understand the meaning of certain words and sentences. Otherwise, as someone said, you get all wrong or misinterpreted.

[awaken]

I don't like to read the translations of DDJ or other classics. I read DDJ and classics directly. I read sutras directly.

 

There are many classics and sutras. Why do you want to find the best translations?

 

I don't read a single classics.

 

I read many classics, not only DDJ.

 

There are many classics.

 

Except DDJ, I read 周易參同契，悟真篇，樂育堂語錄，鐘呂傳道集，修真辨難，重陽全真集，黃庭經，楞嚴經，金剛經，心經，圓覺經，阿含經，四書，傳習錄等等。

 

I read a lot of Chinese classics.

 

Not only DDJ.

 

I am read 華嚴經 recently.

Edited March 30, 2017 by awaken

[Marblehead]

I don't like to read the translations of DDJ or other classics. I read DDJ and classics directly. I read sutras directly.

 

There are many classics and sutras. Why do you want to find the best translations?

 

I don't read a single classics.

 

I read many classics, not only DDJ.

 

There are many classics.

 

Except DDJ, I read 周易參同契，悟真篇，樂育堂語錄，鐘呂傳道集，修真辨難，重陽全真集，黃庭經，楞嚴經，金剛經，心經，圓覺經，阿含經，四書，傳習錄等等。

 

I read a lot of Chinese classics.

 

Not only DDJ.

 

I am read 華嚴經 recently.

 

Well, sure, you have that ability; most of us don't.  We have to rely on those who are more capable than we are.