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#1 Cauvery

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:09 AM

Without reading past the first page of this thread I have a question for the O.P.
Now that you are moving away from AYP Practices what do you intend to do now?

Thank you so much for bringing this up. The very reason why I came here.

I have fallen back to the original Kriya practices that I was initiated into. On the meditation part, I need some input from others here. I stopped the AYP, "I AM" meditation few months back, and took up a mantra / word of my own, after some reading. A bija or root word that is generally thought safe.

In AYP (where I am coming from), it is projected that meditating, or doing japa on OM / AUM is dangerous. And the pranayama from root (muladhara) to crown (sahasrara) is not advised. Cautioned that these things can open crown prematurely. I was doing the root to crown pranayama for 2+ years in Kriya and it did not open my crown prematurely. I was also placing my awareness on the top of the head as taught while practicing Kriya yoga. In the branch of Kriya yoga that I got initiated, meditation on "OM" / "AUM" sound was not taught at beginner level, but it was not thrown out as complete negative also. We were even told that we will eventually listen automatically to the primordial sound in our ears, during practices. I think this did happen to me after several months of practice. I heard something faintly first and then more distinct, during my Kriya practice sessions. It was a rhythmic sound, don't know if it was OM / AUM. It stopped when I stopped the Kriya practices and switched to AYP.

1) I would love to hear about alternate meditation practices from others
2) Is meditating or doing japa on OM" / "AUM dangerous? I have read views favoring and opposing this. But, I would like to get the views of those who have meditated or did japa primarily on the OM / AUM sound.

Btw. I did 2 posts today as replies. When I tried to reply to another post, the system says I have exceeded my daily limit for posts. Am I allowed only 2 posts per day? For how long does this restriction last?


Edited by Cauvery, 11 January 2017 - 09:06 AM.

Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#2 Pilgrim

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 09:03 AM

I see you either learned from Paramahamsa Hariharananda or his org. I learned here as well.

What you learned is modified, and even though original Kriya has it's roots in tantra this goes further into right handed tantra.

I learned and received initiations from the following sources. SRF, Roy Eugene Davis a direct disciple of Yogananda, Paramahamsa Hariharananda, Shibendu Lahiri, 1st and higher Kriyas, Ashoke Kumar Chatterjee (from students) and Rangin Mukherjee of India whom I spent the most personal time with and was taught to initiate others.

SRF & Davis are nearly identical.

Paramahamsa Hariharananda lineage is different from everyone.

Rangin Mukherjee of the Pranabananda Lineage (the saint with two bodies , Autobiography of a Yogi book) (also only once removed from Lahiri Mahasaya polestar and Father of Kriya Yoga) is different from everyone else.

Shibendu Lahiri (Great Grandson of Lahiri Mahasaya)
Ashoke Kumar Chatterjee (learned from Shibendu's Father) are nearly identical. SRF & Davis teach a little like these two sources but do not teach all the techniques nor are they the same as this August lineage from India.

There is no harm using OM correctly.

In Kriya OM is always used in conjunction with a Chakra or Chakras. If the practice is done omitting OM then the practice becomes Tamasic. When first learning the practice of Kriya Pranayam, it is ok as the 3 parts can be difficult to coordinate at first, but one has to combine eventually.

If you sit in a car that is step one, but by sitting alone you will not get anywhere you must next start the car.

Focusing in the fontenal or crown is usually advised based on the individual, not for beginners. It does come into play when one is ready. It is not the same as what Paramahamsa Hariharananda (H.H. For short.) taught.

With H.H. It is from the start but his practice is much different. His original practice did not include the crown but stopped at Ajna. If a person has problems they can drop from crown to Ajna.

More advanced students are taught to use the Chakra directly above the Crown as the place to abide in practices. It would be the 8th in line.

H.H. Held the view uttering OM or Mentally repeating it was of lesser value than actually experiencing it. He also held Navi Kriya in disdain.

AYP Relies on the energetic chacteristic of their Mantras to do the work without focus and this is a source of trouble. Their spinal breathing is okay but tamasic and does not give the same effect as Kriya Pranayam not even first part as the path is not the same.

What they call sutras are something else more like allowing association with concepts to free flow in the quieter mind, which is not bad as it helps one engender the witness state, but could cause the unripe to have an experience of disconnection they may not be ready for.

(Edits due to spelling corrections autocorrect get certain words incorrect.)

Edited by Pilgrim, 07 January 2017 - 09:10 AM.

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#3 MIchael80

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 10:44 AM

Hi pilgrim!

 

Wow you know a lot about kriya!

Are you the guy who made Sri Mukerjee come to the US?

 

I have been initiated by Roy E.D. but practices also in the Nityananda Giri line (has a book: Kriya Yoga the science of life force) and from Ennio Nimis Website.

Interesting that Shibendu and Ashoke are similiar!

 

do you still practice the Mukherjee Version? What do you think of it?

 

Thanks in advance for the anser!

 

best

michael


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#4 Pilgrim

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 11:36 AM

Hi pilgrim!
 
Wow you know a lot about kriya!
Are you the guy who made Sri Mukerjee come to the US?
 
I have been initiated by Roy E.D. but practices also in the Nityananda Giri line (has a book: Kriya Yoga the science of life force) and from Ennio Nimis Website.
Interesting that Shibendu and Ashoke are similiar!
 
do you still practice the Mukherjee Version? What do you think of it?
 
Thanks in advance for the anser!
 
best
michael


Well I don't think made is the correct term but I and one other asked him and he came, we coordinated his visit for close to 2 months in the U.S. That took about 6 to 7 months of daily / weekly communication etc... and around 70 people from the U.S. Canada,Europe and South America learned from him. They were all so happy it was a true joy to be a part of adding something so good to others lives.

It was also very stressful for me and my friend who worked so hard on this project.

Rangin Mukherjee is a very good teacher, and I enjoyed his company quite a bit, especially when we were alone driving, talking etc... My Mother absolutely adores him. Yes I still practice as he taught but practice other things as well.

The Nityananda book is good, his guru learned from Paramahamsa Hariharananda so the practices are somewhat similar but not the same. Swami Nityananda is a nice fellow we discussed this via Email, I think he is truly trying to help others.

Ennio is a dear friend I have allot of love for. We have talked a couple of times via Skype and he has the most amazing rich and melodious voice I have ever heard. Ennio is 100% genuine and a very sweet and loving person, he gives without any reservation to the best of his ability asking nothing in return and says to me.

''You, I, we, have a duty to each other and everyone else to help others wanting to practice Kriya, and we must, it is so important! "

The Rangin Mukherjee version is very good, Ennio shares the basics on his site, but there are subtle things that can only be learned in person. If anyone wants to practice what Ennio shares I do not think anyone would have problems.
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#5 Cauvery

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 08:50 AM

I see you either learned from Paramahamsa Hariharananda or his org. I learned here as well.

What you learned is modified, and even though original Kriya has it's roots in tantra this goes further into right handed tantra.

I learned and received initiations from the following sources. SRF, Roy Eugene Davis a direct disciple of Yogananda, Paramahamsa Hariharananda, Shibendu Lahiri, 1st and higher Kriyas, Ashoke Kumar Chatterjee (from students) and Rangin Mukherjee of India whom I spent the most personal time with and was taught to initiate others.

SRF & Davis are nearly identical.

Paramahamsa Hariharananda lineage is different from everyone.

Rangin Mukherjee of the Pranabananda Lineage (the saint with two bodies , Autobiography of a Yogi book) (also only once removed from Lahiri Mahasaya polestar and Father of Kriya Yoga) is different from everyone else.

Shibendu Lahiri (Great Grandson of Lahiri Mahasaya)
Ashoke Kumar Chatterjee (learned from Shibendu's Father) are nearly identical. SRF & Davis teach a little like these two sources but do not teach all the techniques nor are they the same as this August lineage from India.

There is no harm using OM correctly.

In Kriya OM is always used in conjunction with a Chakra or Chakras. If the practice is done omitting OM then the practice becomes Tamasic. When first learning the practice of Kriya Pranayam, it is ok as the 3 parts can be difficult to coordinate at first, but one has to combine eventually.

If you sit in a car that is step one, but by sitting alone you will not get anywhere you must next start the car.

Focusing in the fontenal or crown is usually advised based on the individual, not for beginners. It does come into play when one is ready. It is not the same as what Paramahamsa Hariharananda (H.H. For short.) taught.

With H.H. It is from the start but his practice is much different. His original practice did not include the crown but stopped at Ajna. If a person has problems they can drop from crown to Ajna.

More advanced students are taught to use the Chakra directly above the Crown as the place to abide in practices. It would be the 8th in line.

H.H. Held the view uttering OM or Mentally repeating it was of lesser value than actually experiencing it. He also held Navi Kriya in disdain.

AYP Relies on the energetic chacteristic of their Mantras to do the work without focus and this is a source of trouble. Their spinal breathing is okay but tamasic and does not give the same effect as Kriya Pranayam not even first part as the path is not the same.

What they call sutras are something else more like allowing association with concepts to free flow in the quieter mind, which is not bad as it helps one engender the witness state, but could cause the unripe to have an experience of disconnection they may not be ready for.

(Edits due to spelling corrections autocorrect get certain words incorrect.)

 

Right on money Pilgrim.  I got initiated into kriya yoga by Paramhansa Prajnanananda, the successor of Paramahamsa Hariharananda.  You have deep knowledge on various flavors of kriya yoga.

The problem in this case, seems to be too many flavors of kriya yoga, with variations on techniques.  Some quite different as you state from your experience.  Many kriya schools claim that theirs is THE authentic way directly from Yuktheswar, Lahiri Mahasaya or Babaji.

As some one else pointed out each system seems to have it's own flaws.  They all have their own advantages.

 

I don't know I would go so far to call it right handed tantra.  When I first read your post, somehow I got confused and thought you said left handed tantra.   I was thinking, what?  how can this be vama marga? :)

 

Then realized I confused right with left.  Too much past reading on left handed tantra from Aghora I, II & III by Robert Svoboda :mellow: .  At first I hated when I read Aghora I.  Few years later, I read again with open mind, and simply loved.  Liked part II & III also.

 

Not sure, if it can be called right handed tantra.  At any cost, the word "tantra" was never uttered during my kriya initiation or any time afterwards.  When we talk of right handed tantra, depending on our take, many yogic systems can go under tantra.  (Off topic: It is even said, that there is no idol worship in vedas.  The vedic ritual was yagna.  I read, it is from Tantra, the idol, deities or temple worship originated,  & some how down the line got mixed with the mainstream vedic way of life.  I don't know if this is true or not, but there is truth in the words, that the vedic ritual were yagnas and there was no idol worship.  Vedic scholars or pundits can correct me whether idol worship is mentioned as ritual anywhere in the core samhita part of vedas.)

 

I was on level one of kriya, never got to the advanced levels.  I knew there were others practicing advanced levels.  I had no clue what was in advanced levels, chakras above crown, etc.  This seems to be another thing with kriya schools, the hush hush.  Shouldn't talk about practices.  This made systems like AYP that took advantage of technology at early stage, attract people like me, who simply wanted to learn more about their practices.  The learning itself was good, but only a decade later, I realized, it is possibly distorted, just a collection of multiple ancient techniques (modified and mixed as the author saw fit) and promoted with a different name and as unique scientific approach to yoga.  

The knowledge and information I sought -- in undiluted form --  was always available at all times, if only I knew where to look.  One example would be books by Swami Satyananda Saraswati on various topics of yoga, kundalini, tantra, etc.  His book "A Systematic Course in the Ancient Tantric Techniques of Yoga and Kriya"   is something I cherish, an encyclopedia, a manual, a reference book that is going to stay with me.  I would highly recommend this book to anyone longing for knowledge to understand yoga, kriya, tantra, kundalini, meditation, yoga nidra -- this book covers the gamut of yoga & tantra.  Moving  on.

 

In the kriya yoga, I  was taught to keep the attention always on crown, whenever possible, even when not doing kriya.   Similary, kechari, sambhavi and several heavy duty mudras, pranayamas, etc. were taught on day one & day two of initiation.  At least there was no swearing oath for secrecy, etc.

 

You have provided wonderful insight with clarity addressing the core concerns on my question; about "OM", pranayama, explaining the tamasic nature.  I am getting back on track, many thanks.   


Edited by cauvery, 08 January 2017 - 02:43 PM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#6 Pilgrim

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 12:04 PM

From everything I have learned over the years all of them claim there version is the only Authentic version of Kriya. Except for Swami Nityananda

 

S.N. For short simply told me I do not know if what My Guru taught me was original or not only that I am happy with it. I think that is a very good way to be.

 

It is pretty easy to see that not everyone can be teaching the authentic version when none of them teach the exact same thing and even when they do teach lets say Mahamudra for example they tend to teach it a bit different in some cases like with H.H. very differently and far more complicated.

 

Sri Yukteswar and his lineage are a big departure point. Whatever is taught by those coming from that lineage are without a doubt teaching a modified version often heavily modified as in the case of H.H.

 

Not necessarily a bad thing.

 

Shibendu and Ashoke Singh are teaching nearly identically to the other lineages from India to include Shalindra Sharma another disciple of Shibendu's Father, the Ashok Singh of Vedic Kriya Yoga here in California, USA and Dhamndra Vatts of India whom Arraya Mission used to send people to, not sure if spelling is correct or if they still do.

 

Relying on what there students have shared of the last 4. All are very sincere people I have spent time with in person.

 

Sri Mukherjee teaches the simplest form of Kriya, He states that everything is done in the AJNA Chakra, there is no need to go up and down the spine and that the doing so is a mistake his Guru called him on as so many have repeated it.

 

He said my Guruji asked me to tell him how he was doing his Kriya and to show him. When he started to describe going up and down the spine his Guru said no, no you have misunderstood come here sit and he corrected him.

 

Even Sri Mukherjees Guru's son was doing it wrong and telling others wrongly.

 

Part of the reason for his Guru's sons misunderstanding is he did not learn from his Father who was Pranabananda's disciple. Pranabananda was Lahiri Mahasayas co worker at the railroad and disciple.

 

The reason According to Sri Mukherjee is that the Guru is the spiritual Father.

 

If you are the birth Father to your child then you can not be Father twice. So for initiation and learning you are sent to another, a Spiritual Father to teach you rather than your Physical Father if he is also a Guru.

 

He also said it is very simple to understand the job of the Spiritual Father is to introduce you to Spiritual Practices, the job of a spiritual son or daughter is to do them, for their own benefit.

 

Even as the job of a good Father is to introduce you to the world and teach you how to live in it, provide for you and your education if he can etc until you can take care of yourself.

 

This actually makes allot of sense. The Father has a certain relationship with their children another person does not.

 

Often a Father or Husband will say something and be ignored by the Family. A different person will say the very same thing but will be paid attention to because the relationship is different.

 

He used to laughingly joke and call what others were teaching Monkey Kriya  because it was compared to a monkey going up and down the tree. He would say that this contributes to a restless mind just like the restlessness of a monkey running all over the place.

 

Over and over again life has shown me that most things are simple but get over-complicated over time, especially when there are too many cooks in the kitchen all claiming their recipe is best and the only authentic way to boil water.

 

Lahiri Mahasaya had a Guru he called Babaji. From him he asked to be permitted to help the householders as they could not become monks and take up serious abandon the world Sadhana. For working people with jobs and families this simply was not possible.

 

This Babaji agreed and left it up to him to do this.

 

Lahiri Mahasaya who was also a working person with a family taught to working people with families as well as monks and even Muslims which was unheard of.

 

Do you really think he laid out an overly complex system for people with little time and heavy responsibilities?

 

Do you really think he created a system that would be such a burden as to cause people troubles like the AYP "overload syndrome does"

 

Do you really think he made up something no one would do, or be able to do every day?

 

Some have the misguided idea Lahiri Mahasaya taught differently to different people. This is pure fantasy trying to make the shoe fit.

 

 Lahiri Mahasaya taught Kriya in his way and being a working person he did not have time to customize everything to each and every individual nor was there a need to.

 

The moment someone he permitted to teach got out of sight they started teaching it there way. I understand why this is100% and do not condemn it at all.

 

What???  Hows that possible?

 

Part of Kriya is that you learn the higher Kriyas either from your teacher or they will come to you automatically.

 

It just happens you are shown how to do something. Those teaching usually can not stop themselves from either being of the maximum possible help to those learning, or wish to distinguish themselves with a different way, or are purely in it for the money.

 

Take your pick. Could even be all 3.

 

If I had to place my money on a bet I would Say Sri Rangin Mukherjee is correct and his way is indeed the Original Practice of Kriya Yoga.

 

The next closest are the descendants of the Lahiri Family but it may just be a repeated mistake starting with Shibendu's Father or his Father it is impossible to know..

 

After that it is anyone's guess. Commonality does not prove authenticity, Monkey See Monkey do. Mistakes are often repeated.

 

I make a case for Sri Rangin Mukherjee because it is simple and does lead to the higher Kriyas and he does make a good case that Ajna is connected to all the other Chakras right through the center and by purifying it the others are purified as well.

 

Imagine this if you will:

 

I have 6 pipes

 

Pipe #1 has the largest inside diameter of all the pipes.

 

As I travel through the tunnel of Pipe #1 I come to pipe #2 but its interior diameter is smaller so I have to duck a little to walk in it.

 

From Pipe #2 to Pipe #3. I have to bend over to walk through it.

 

From Pipe #3 to Pipe#4  the passage way is getting narrower and i have to walk on my knees

 

From Pipe #4 to Pipe #5  A have to get down and crawl on hands an knees.

 

From Pipe 5 to pipe 6 my arms are out straight in front of me and I am pushing with my feet and pulling with my fingers to go forward.

 

Mind has to become more and more subtle / refined  to fit.

 

Each pipe represents the center aperture of each Chakra as you move from outer to inner the diameter gets smaller and the way requires more effort to continue ever deeper within Sushumna.

 

Each layer is a differnet state of reality of subjective beingness.

 

To move through each one, one does this with force of prana, but this happens later.

 

In the beginning one keeps all focus in Ajna the command and control center.

 

Imagine each of these chakras as plates with a string connecting them in the center above now imagine each of them having several layers of dust on them If I come up to plate number 6 and tap it in the center repeatedly in a specific way the vibration will pass down the string and as it touches each Chakra it will vibrate and some of the dust will shake off of it.

 

Each of these plates is inside of what appears to be a tube.

 

If you do Monkey Kriya  you will always be on the outer most inner wall of the tube hitting the trigger points of the chakras only.

 

If you do spinal breathing the same will be true but you will miss most of the trigger points only hitting them haphazardly.

 

This is the Pranayam of Kriya as learned from Sri Mukherjee.

 

If one thinks of them as Russian Nesting dolls one inside the other then you have a more correct idea but not quite.

 

Visualizing trying to comprehend these words cannot help here, it is actually a mistake that has lead to Monkey Kriya and copy cat spinal breathing and all kinds of other variations keeping the praactitioner on the dimension of outer most inner wall.

 

Which of course is closest to the dimension of Muladhara. Which is the dimension of our earthly lives and also why people report failure to advance doing such practices.

 

Through Ajna you travel via prana with force through the center of each Chakra. Before you can do this you must purify the centers via Ajna.

 

In the beginning and until you have purified these chakras there is absolutely no need to visualize or be concerned about traversing the chakras. Part of the reason is by the given techniques you are already doing just that, the dimension that is missing is the ability to recognize this. When you have purified the chakras enough you will know because then you will start seeing and knowing and will know how to do it no one will have to tell you.

 

The first 5 Chakras represent our earthly human lives from C-6 and above is the departure from human earthly life so it is this where we find our-self now that we work with first in Kriya.

 

According to Sri Mukherjee it is not safe to attempt to work with Prana until the centers have been purified. So much for the airplane route to God. Like everything that is obtainable some elbow grease is usually required.

 

Many have made Kriya into some glamorous thing with tall tales and good story telling and selling. Many more have some really kooky ideas about what a teacher or Guru should be, heck some of the ones I have learned from were not even particularly nice people. That never distracted me from learning though.

 

Kriya is at heart a very basic practical practice it's purpose for the practitioner to discover by doing no amount of talking will do what practice will..

 

I can honestly say that I have however experienced many of the impossible things said to happen from Kriya Practice so even in the hype there is truth.


Edited by Pilgrim, 08 January 2017 - 12:12 PM.

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#7 Cauvery

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 02:29 PM

Wow, that is some in-depth analysis of kriya practices.  But it is a lot to digest from where I stand.

 

Some say, Lahari Mahasaya taught diffidently and some say he taught one technique.

 

I was always open to the possibility that Lahari Mahasaya might have taught different techniques to different levels of seekers -- with some core practices of kriya yoga.

 

The best I can say is, I don't know.  What I know is, some systems do damage to some (house holders at least)

 

I have to agree on the point that you made, considering that Lahari Mahasaya was teaching for house holders.  I am sure he would have never wanted the overloads etc.

 

Given this scenario with so many schools, you have clearly stated where you stand.  You feel that you would make a case for Sri Rangin Mukherjee's kriya teachings.

 

Now, let me ask you this?  For some one starting out on yoga, where do you think they should start?  Where and how to get instantiated into Sri Rangin Mukherjee's kriya yoga that you are making a case for?

 

What you think about the book that I mentioned by Swami Satyananda Saraswati.  I felt that it was a comprehensive book that documented the yoga practices in theory.  Swami Satyananda Saraswati clearly states that the guidance of the guru is needed for several practices.  Have you read this book?  If so, do you think that this book captures the essential practices of kriya yoga?

 

Many thanks once again, for taking the time to answer this in detail.


Edited by cauvery, 08 January 2017 - 02:46 PM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#8 Pilgrim

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 03:16 PM

I have been taught to initiate By Sri Mukherjee and he has had me teach some he has initiated. One day I might take up the task but he and I will need to discuss it first. For now contact him directly at http://originalkriya.com.

The project of the USA trip was very extremely stressful for Sri Mukherjee and myself we got along very well but in the end I broke of contact for reasons that are personal and well understood between us which is not to say we have a 1 to 1 problem.

I still care about him and think the best of him and I do miss him. We had great times together.

You see when you take on students you form relationships, not all go well and even indirectly cause damaging memories and feelings to those good relationships. There was nothing taudry or untoward so no need to worry. People think organizing is great for the insiders, they get the most time with the teacher, but I tell all it is very hard work, especially when insider difficulties arise as I believe is inevitable.

Sri Mukherjee said he is going to be very selective in the future and not just give out Kriya to every Tom Dick & Harry and forbid me to initiate certain individuals.

Because of these memories I am very hesitant to form relationships and teach. My time is also limited due to work etc.

I think anyone can start with the technique Ennio shares

http://www.kriyayoga...Downloads1.html

If they can manage this twice a day with 3 rounds of basic mahamudra they will have more than enough until fortune brings them into alignment for initiation, certain techniques are not permitted until initiation as they will have no effect according to Sri Mukherjee.

Satyananda Saraswati was probably a good teacher but I have never felt aligned to his teachings.
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#9 Pilgrim

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 06:45 AM

Almost forgot Sri Mukherjee also says the practice is sufficient to clear the nadis in the entire system not just the main Chakras. He further goes on to instruct that the higher Kriya initiations or carrots others bait the donkey with are not necessary.

 

#1. He states once initiated there is no reason to be initiated again.  There is one initiation period into the lineage it does not need to be repeated. The best way to think of it is as a spiritual adoption when a person adopts someone into their family there is no need to adopt them twice.

 

#2. He stated that the higher Kriyas come to you automatically and that you will receive instruction, that there is no need for him or anyone else to teach them to you. He said that you may even hear a voice telling you what to do while practicing Kriya and whatever language you speak will be the language you will hear, or you may see things or will feel things and intuitively know what to do.

 

#3. He did discuss the higher Kriyas so everyone would know what to expect when the time comes as a result of practice, he like myself is a very open individual when it comes to instructing others. If you read his website it has a very stern tone to it, the personality of the author however is much different he is a very cheerful guy in private who likes to laugh allot. When teaching he is entertaining and informative but never mean, abusive as some tend to be.

 

This receiving instruction as a person progresses is the guidance from the lineage, and the real reason for initiation is to be welcomed into the family. A stranger may not walk into your home and take food.

 

Your Son or Daughter who is your family has a key and is welcome to come into your home and take food as are their children.

 

Initiation is always an interesting topic to people because it is so shrouded in tradition and suspicion. 

 

On the less practical side of the Initiation side of things when you are initiated there is a transference or a sharing of the lineage power. Almost all of the people who received initiation reported similar temporary phenomenal results, so many did in fact that it was not a coincidence.

 

The initiations were scheduled and were private one on one, in the correct way, (Group Initiations are not correct) without prior communication between people. As one person received initiation they were then asked to leave the property before the next person arrived.

 

Most Kriya lineages will not teach you without first becoming initiated.

 

This to a Western Audience seems unfair, as it is not our tradition. To a Western Audience this comes off as demanding a contract before one even knows what they are getting into.

 

For a Western Audience this is the correct mentality to have because we lack the cultural context of Ancient India where things are generally understood.

 

Sri Mukherjee did something pretty much unheard of and allowed Ennio NImis to place the basic technique of Pranayam on his website not the entire practice but enough to allow people to make an informed decision based on their own practice.

 

This is the kind of person he is when it comes to Kriya Teachers, a huge departure, and a welcomed one.

 

Well anyway I hope this is useful, best wishes.


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#10 Cauvery

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:01 AM

I think anyone can start with the technique Ennio shares

http://www.kriyayoga...Downloads1.html

If they can manage this twice a day with 3 rounds of basic mahamudra they will have more than enough until fortune brings them into alignment for initiation, certain techniques are not permitted until initiation as they will have no effect according to Sri Mukherjee.

Satyananda Saraswati was probably a good teacher but I have never felt aligned to his teachings.

 

 

I have come across the kriyayogainfo before (I think possibly several years back).  I read part i at the time.  Later part ii.  I just browsed part iii.  It is a noble effort some one to share such knowledge.

 

I completely agree with what you have said and the caution on the site that some practices need initiation or guidance by guru.  Taught properly, otherwise they can cause more harm than good.

 

I see Swami Satyananda Saraswati's book from a purely theoretical point of view.  To get the knowledge of various practices of kriya and tantra.  I think that is what the book was meant for.  Swami cautions on many places not to try some practices of our own.  I read somewhere that there are books on medical surgery.  Anyone can get and read these text books freely.  But, only a competent surgeon who has watched and learned under other qualified surgeons and got licensed can attempt or perform a surgery.  When I read these statements, I started seeing Swami Satyananda Saraswati's books from this view point.  A purely textbook perspective.  To start many of the practices that he has mentioned on our own could be extremely dangerous in my opinion.  For instance the colon cleansing procedure, he has said he has broken tradition and documented the practice first time.  AYP has a much watered down version of this cleansing procedure.  I attempted a milder version of what Swami Satyananda Saraswati taught once for health reasons.  I WOULD NOT advise any one to do this.  This was the dumbest thing I ever did in my life.  The strong caution is there for a reason.  Even after trying a milder version, the results were powerful.  He cautions against drinking water for 2 or 4 hours after the practice.  This is something impossible in my view, unless someone is under the care of some yoga school or trained medical professional.  (I am not a trained medical professional and whatever I say here is just my experience).  After about an hour of practice, I simply could not control the thirst.   I simply gulped four 1 liter water bottles in like 2 minutes.  This is described as dangerous.  I am glad I came out in one piece.

 

Going back to the kriyainfo link that you posted, it is very interesting to note on part iii, there is a strong mention of japa and it's benefits.  As the author points out accurately, the kriya schools see japa as a waste of time.  I have read somewhere in AYP, Yogani holding the same views -- it is a watered kriya as we know (+ TM).  This author is so wise to understand the value of japa, in my opinion.  Such people who only followed the path of jnana as Ramana Maharishi have extolled the value of japa.

 

I wish you the best and hope you will do kriya initiations.  It would be refreshing to have some one, who does not hold the view that their kriya is the only authentic way of kriya, to do the initiations.  Some one that has extensive knowledge and experience on kriya, yet holds a balanced view of the practices; mature enough to state, I feel that this may be the better way.  One can only wish that the so called masters that do initiation on  various flavors of kriya hold such a balanced view.  Knowing that various types of kriyas  exist (no matter whether it is came directly from Babaji, or Lahari Mahasaya or Yukteswar or any other guru), insisting that my kriya is the authentic one does create confusion when the practitioners invariably come to know of other schools.  May be they state it just to provide confidence or reassurance to the person they are initiating.  Not to have the doubts whether they are doing the right practice, deter their progress.  This is the only reasonable explanation that I can come up with.  The problem with this is the inherent teachings get mixed and modified so much, like the example with AYP, we don't know whether it has crossed the line and strayed far off to hold any value at all.  Unlike kriya, only the actual practitioners can tell on these new age modern systems.   In my case, though not negative overall, I feel I have regressed and lost years, that are vital.

 

I still have couple of questions, if you have the time to answer them.  You mentioned getting initiated in the school of H.H.  From, what I understand you are not doing this flavor of kriya now, right?  What are your thoughts on japa as an adjunct to kriya yoga?  For that matter adding a TM/DM type meditation on twice a day on top of kriya practices?


Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#11 Cauvery

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:20 AM

Almost forgot Sri Mukherjee also says the practice is sufficient to clear the nadis in the entire system not just the main Chakras. He further goes on to instruct that the higher Kriya initiations or carrots others bait the donkey with are not necessary.

 

#1. He states once initiated there is no reason to be initiated again.  There is one initiation period into the lineage it does not need to be repeated. The best way to think of it is as a spiritual adoption when a person adopts someone into their family there is no need to adopt them twice.

 

#2. He stated that the higher Kriyas come to you automatically and that you will receive instruction, that there is no need for him or anyone else to teach them to you. He said that you may even hear a voice telling you what to do while practicing Kriya and whatever language you speak will be the language you will hear, or you may see things or will feel things and intuitively know what to do.

 

#3. He did discuss the higher Kriyas so everyone would know what to expect when the time comes as a result of practice, he like myself is a very open individual when it comes to instructing others. If you read his website it has a very stern tone to it, the personality of the author however is much different he is a very cheerful guy in private who likes to laugh allot. When teaching he is entertaining and informative but never mean, abusive as some tend to be.

 

This receiving instruction as a person progresses is the guidance from the lineage, and the real reason for initiation is to be welcomed into the family. A stranger may not walk into your home and take food.

 

Your Son or Daughter who is your family has a key and is welcome to come into your home and take food as are their children.

 

Initiation is always an interesting topic to people because it is so shrouded in tradition and suspicion. 

 

On the less practical side of the Initiation side of things when you are initiated there is a transference or a sharing of the lineage power. Almost all of the people who received initiation reported similar temporary phenomenal results, so many did in fact that it was not a coincidence.

 

The initiations were scheduled and were private one on one, in the correct way, (Group Initiations are not correct) without prior communication between people. As one person received initiation they were then asked to leave the property before the next person arrived.

 

Most Kriya lineages will not teach you without first becoming initiated.

 

This to a Western Audience seems unfair, as it is not our tradition. To a Western Audience this comes off as demanding a contract before one even knows what they are getting into.

 

For a Western Audience this is the correct mentality to have because we lack the cultural context of Ancient India where things are generally understood.

 

Sri Mukherjee did something pretty much unheard of and allowed Ennio NImis to place the basic technique of Pranayam on his website not the entire practice but enough to allow people to make an informed decision based on their own practice.

 

This is the kind of person he is when it comes to Kriya Teachers, a huge departure, and a welcomed one.

 

Well anyway I hope this is useful, best wishes.

 

I guess we both posted about the same time (my previous post)  :)

 

The additional information that you provided is also extremely valuable.  I agree completely on the initiation part.  It is sad that the western audience feel this way about initiation.  But, there are some good reasons to this.  There are so many people that call themselves gurus, that come to the west, and teach yoga or do initiations in bulk (the group initiation that you talked about), sometimes with several hundreds of people at a time.  I have personally seen this and unfortunately part of something that I wanted to experiment.  This is just disgusting.  The business and only financial motivation.   I know even one famous school (I don't want to name it), got copyright for their trademark pranayama.  This is unheard of in any yogic tradition.  Naturally results in discontent on the entire topic of initiation.  The people in west are tired.  I live here and can understand it.  Their views on initiation is a direct result of such dubious people trying to make a buck, and selling initiations like they were peanuts in a bucket.

 

I got initiated on the H.H. school of kriya over a decade back.  Though it was a small group of people, the initiation for each one of us was done separately by the guru.  There is value in this.  I was asked to pay a very moderate amount, that would hardly cover the expenses here.  I understand that I do not need initiation again.  After doing the AYP system or practices for years, even after going back to the kriya on which I was initiated, there is a lingering doubt on the mind, whether I forgot some minor details of a technique.  I think mistakes, some times even minor, can have positive and negative consequences.

 

From what I hear, if Sri Mukherjee shared even the basic form of his pranayama or practices freely on a site like that, it is still unprecedented.  Shows how open minded he is.  I wish more like him come forward and document the practices at least in theory with cautions that many practices are not best undertaken on one's own.  This is what that kriyayogainfo link you provided is doing.  It is just wonderful on the persons part to come out and give information in such a way.  The traditional schools think that if techniques get out, they could get corrupted or modified.  We see this happening.  But, keeping it locked away is also not exactly helping.  It seems to be worse with the information age and the technologies.  People that want to break their oath and modify the teachings and present them as they see fit, are able to do it.  How can a seeker find out what is authentic, what is diluted and what is so watered down or modified that it may be useless or dangerous.  There has to be some reference.  This is why I appreciate Swami Satyananda Saraswati's work.  We need authentic information documented by some one that is honestly held in high regard, one that does not sell or give away initiations for any ulterior motives.

I hope Sri Mukherjee or other great Kriya masters come out and clearly document the entire practice.  This is just my opinion.  I am sure a lot of people won't agree with my views.


Edited by cauvery, 09 January 2017 - 07:21 AM.

Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#12 Pilgrim

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 07:43 AM

Ennio puts  out his book in 3 parts with Annual Updates. That was not the part I was referring to when it comes to Sri Mukherjee. Here I will copy and paste the link for clarity.

 

 

http://www.kriyayoga... Kriya Yoga.pdf

 

This Pranayam as described followed by Mahamudra of the basic variety found in part 2 of Ennio's book was what I was referring to as being more than enough when done twice daily. Or you can do as H.H. instruct with Mahamudra.

 

I have time to answer if not immediately then later.

 

That is correct concerning the Kriya of H.H. HIs 1st kriya is a 7 to 8 part procedure to be done twice daily even a mild form of this takes 45 minutes. When I was practicing it it was not uncommon to take 1.5 to 2 Hours per cession.

 

The practice is very procedure oriented and has much in common with Tibetan / Tantric practices. Like with the six Yogas of Naropa H.H. taught to first prepare the field by preparing the spine and separating the two side channels from the center channel. His two favorite techniques are the forward Bends and Mahamudra which he considered the most important of all.

 

First Kriya procedure is all about starting from the point of daily life and then introverting first preparing before doing anything else then going up and down the ladder becoming familiar with the forward trigger points of the chakras and the rear trigger points.

 

The purpose of first Kriya with H.H.is to purify and grow accustomed to the viewpoint of the soul up on top and not living from the view point of the lower centers which is why 1st Kriya does not involve entering the Chakras until this work is accomplished.

 

The reason for this is in his second Kriya one enters into the chakras via the petals in a very complicated manner using Bija or seed sounds Mantra. 

 

H.H was extremely advanced. He learned from many different Kriya Gurus as did Paramahamsa Yogananda. He was granted the permission to initiate and teaching in the manner of Yogoda Satsang Society of India a branch of SRF.

 

As the years went by with his advanced knowledge of inner transformation and practice of Sadhana or Spiritual Practices, he started teaching differently.

 

His lineage was that of Kriya. The techniques are different. Is it right to still call it Kriya? I think it is a bit deceptive and causes more trouble than they know and hurts their following when they discover the discrepancies but I like to think about it the same was as Swami NItyananda, see earlier post.

 

The people I met of the lineage however were some of the most happy and loving people I have ever known so whatever case one may want to make it is hard to argue with the satisfaction of the followers, many are PHD's in their fields Medical Doctors etc... so not an ignorant or uneducated group by any means and I think the value also can not be ignored as the organization is world wide.

 

After my experiences with organizing on a small scale I have a whole different appreciation of things.

 

TM/Dm Meditation is not really necessary and I feel it is error to mix it with Kriya Pranayam. The Kriya Pranayam of Sri Mukherjee has features of TM or DM.

 

When It comes to Japa some find great use in it. Ennio does for example.

 

I agree with Sri Mukherjee in that it is not needed during the day as one should be in the after effect of Kriya practice and that is enough.

 

So you see these are different approaches with the name Kriya all lead to the same thing and it really is up to the individual what they find most appealing to them and that may very well change as time goes by. 

 

The first Kriya is about purification in all lineages.

 

In different lineages they break down Sushumna entry piercing the center of the Chakras to go into the finest Nadis like Brahma Nadi.

 

In the Lineage of Pranabananda who by all historical accounts was extremely advanced he does away with all the didactic stages and that is what Sri Mukherjee has passed onto his students. A more simple method that the student grows with rather than forcing Prana prematurely.


Edited by Pilgrim, 09 January 2017 - 08:36 AM.

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#13 Pilgrim

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 08:04 AM

The only reason not to has nothing to do with secrecy or ulterior motives. As you wisely stated the many points they are correct.

 

The reasons I will not publish the techniques are two.

 

#1. I was asked not to.

 

#2. Having seen people trained and training others I fully realize how everyone learns in their own unique way and it is just not possible to explain everything in a way everyone will read and comprehend. That is just asking way too much. Ennio put out his comparative analysis with deep compassion for others but warns it is not an instruction manual.

 

People do forget over time. Sri Mukherjee was adamant about people taking good hand written notes and welcomed the students to contact him with questions.

 

Taking the forgetfulness factor into play it is also easy to see why a practice given to Working Family People had to be kept simple yet effective without tons of little details and techniques to remember.

 

There are those blessed with truly superior minds and those both more capable and less capable to ourselves, not all things are for all people, so rather than lament the burden of discovery as a seeker let us rejoice that there is life and opportunity to discover and we will all make our own unique way.

 

There is no one right branch of Kriya for everyone, thankfully the process of purification and leading to everything that words do not cover is presented in so many ways.

 

If a person is on the hunt for the Original Way Kriya was taught and Practiced then I think that Sri Mukherjee taught it.

 

If a person has other goals or wants to decide for themselves what fits them best and has a passion for Kriya whatever the reason may be then they will have to experience different teachers and learn.

 

Yes and listen to the different opinions and statements about being the only authentic way etc... Just remember those teaching may have very deep personal ties to the founder of their organization or family and heartfelt belief one should not tamper with.

 

Their entire identity may hinge upon their cultural identification and place in life. They may also not know any better and may not want to.

 

I had both concerns and put in the shoe leather to satisfy myself.

 

If a person feels no affinity for Kriya but wants to practice something else that is good too.


Edited by Pilgrim, 09 January 2017 - 08:32 AM.

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#14 Cauvery

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 12:25 PM

The reasons I will not publish the techniques are two.

 

#1. I was asked not to.

 

#2. Having seen people trained and training others I fully realize how everyone learns in their own unique way and it is just not possible to explain everything in a way everyone will read and comprehend. That is just asking way too much. Ennio put out his comparative analysis with deep compassion for others but warns it is not an instruction manual.

 

The reasons that you stated above are possibly the best explanation I ever heard for not documenting or publishing the techniques.  However, it is still my opinion that there should be some base line.  As you pointed out, it is out of deep compassion that Ennio has written the instruction manual.  The warnings are a must in my opinion.

 

 

The only reason not to has nothing to do with secrecy or ulterior motives. As you wisely stated the many points they are correct.

People do forget over time. Sri Mukherjee was adamant about people taking good hand written notes and welcomed the students to contact him with questions.

 

Taking the forgetfulness factor into play it is also easy to see why a practice given to Working Family People had to be kept simple yet effective without tons of little details and techniques to remember.

 

There are those blessed with truly superior minds and those both more capable and less capable to ourselves, not all things are for all people, so rather than lament the burden of discovery as a seeker let us rejoice that there is life and opportunity to discover and we will all make our own unique way.

 

Once again deep insights that you provide with such clarity clearly proves, as an earnest seeker, you were not only able to cross the burden of discovery and acquire knowledge, but analyze and apply the acquired knowledge intelligently.  It seems evident from your statements, that through sincere application of the acquired knowledge in kriya, one can cross the boundaries and learn the techniques, or see which techquinques work best for them, based on their experiential knowledge or intuition.  This intuition or inner knowledge seems to be from the culmination of results, that started somewhere at somepoint as initiation into basic kriya techquines.  This is the way I am understanding it and it is beautiful.

 

There is one thing I see a bit differently from the way you see you see it.  As earnest seekers I agree, we should rejoice that there is life and the opportunity to discover. Beauty of life and the opportunity of discovery are one side of the coin.  There is another side where in we stumble and discover things that are not so great, as you pointed out, whether to call some of these as kriya is debatable. 

 

Majority (I want to avoid saying "All") of the schools initiating on kriya yoga seem to be a good starting place for beginners.  I think your post more or less affirms this.  When we said majority, we have to agree there are possibly few that have deviated so much from the kriya practice (if we can even call them kriya anymore), that they can even possibly cause harm  -- or stall the progress at least.  These all are part of the journey as you have described and earnest seekers will go through the different ways and discover.   All these ups and downs seem to come from inside. 

 

Even worldly sciences for instance, like brain surgery need personal guidance of a teacher (guru) in the form of an experienced brain surgeon.  The student learning such surgery is expected to be physically present with an experience surgeon(s) for a period of time to learn by experience.  This is also a form of initiation and there is continued teaching and guidance until the person reaches a certain state.  After that, the person is able to do brain surgeries by himself and learn from his own experience.  Medical textbooks about brain surgery by themselves serve little purpose.  Each medic an student and the surgeon teaching are also seekers at variable levels with their own unique individual qualities.  I can see that this analogy has several flaws.  The textbooks in this example, accompanied by the direct teaching of some expert in the field becomes something of value.

 

As you have accurately pointed out once again; it is extremely hard or may even be impossible to publish one set of techniques.  There is also the danger, when some one attempts this, it can end up something like AYP, with the founder/originator's influence that you so correctly pointed out. 

 

Even for the same individual, what seems right at one time and place, seems entirely wrong at another time or place.  It may just be wishful thinking, to expect comprehensive publication of all kriya techniques, perceived as right and wrong by teachers, based on when and where the teachers stand also.   Still resources like Ennio seem to serve some value to me.  At the very minimum, they can act as a deterrent helping seekers stay clear dubious gurus, ineffective or even clearly harmful practices.  This is where I still see value in publishing the techniques, besides the discovery part.

 

I am grateful to you for taking the time to share your experience and wisdom on kriya.  I have learned so much from just your posts in this topic.  Your sharing has opened up several possibilities for me.   Coming out of AYP, I was feeling discontent, lost to certain extent.  I see a path in front of me now, not necessarily concrete, but a path filled with joy and discoveries.  I can also see that things unfold as we progress.  I am glad that I came here and made this post.   There is some meaning to it all now.


Edited by cauvery, 09 January 2017 - 12:46 PM.

Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#15 Pilgrim

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:25 PM

You are welcome. Thank you for the kind words and encouragement to teach, it is in me to do and close friends keep encouraging me to but I am resistant to the idea of being a Guru or spiritual Father. I would much rather just be myself and share what I can.
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#16 Cauvery

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 06:27 AM

You are welcome. Thank you for the kind words and encouragement to teach, it is in me to do and close friends keep encouraging me to but I am resistant to the idea of being a Guru or spiritual Father. I would much rather just be myself and share what I can.

 

I can see the reason, why your friends are encouraging you to be a teacher.  It is hard to find a teacher with balance in their perspectives.   Honestly I think you would be a great kriya teacher.

 

By your sharing here, you have already provided guidance, clarity and taught me many things.   Many others might derive benefits from the insight that you have provided here.

 

I understand and respect your decision on teaching or initiating in kriya.  It all boils down to what our heart tell us to do.

 

Perhaps things might change in time!  Sometimes the needs around us influence our heart and open up possibilities.

 

Hari OM.


Edited by cauvery, 10 January 2017 - 07:18 AM.

Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).






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