"Sudden enlightenment" in daoism

[[email protected]]

I guess there is a big difference between sudden enlightenment (becoming aware, understanding oneselfs nature etc) and constant nourishing/accumulating ones qi level.

Ones mind can be enlightend, but nourishing qi requires time and regular work, for me it is obvious.

[Wells]

.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Wells

[Daeluin]

The most general idea I get from reading people's descriptions of their post-NDE perspective is of a realisation that they are not the small self or the ego self, but I don't think it is generally associated with enlightenment. Just a massive shift of focus, and often a newfound passion to engage in 'spiritual' or compassionate pursuits. 

 

Just hypothetically, NDE's could be fairly safely manufactured with current medical knowledge, but there might be some moral outcry or dissension - I know this idea of medically induced NDE's was explored in a 1990 movie called 'Flatliners' which I found somewhat interesting at the time as a concept.

 

If any of this relates to sudden enlightenment in neidan/daoism I have no idea

 

edit: I would be interested in reading something from Wang Liping after his death experience if you could point me in the right direction.

 

The excerpt comes from the book Opening the Dragon Gate and can be found here, though the excerpt is rather complete about that stage of his training.

 

Also, even if medically possible for someone to survive an NDE through external orchestration, I still think it is most important for one to cultivate a clean energetic foundation first, to assist the Hun on its journey through the yin wei vessel. Otherwise I worry it could get caught up in blockages and be unable to fully benefit from the experience. In the story of Wang Liping, he not only is able to access his current life memories, but is also able to access his entire DNA lineage and whatever transmissions they had for him. Perhaps this is possible because he is not dead just for a few moments, but a much longer period of time.

[Daeluin]

Excuse me.

 

Can you tell us why your heart block so badly?

 

I hope that Someone who seems to know everything about the enlightenment or sudden enlightenment can really enlightenment.

 

Not just know the knowledges of sudden enlightenment or sudden enlightment.

 

I can receive your chi from your words.

 

I hope you can enlightment first before you teach your students what is enlightenment.

 

Sorry to say this.

 

I hope you don't get angry about me.

 

I hope you can pay more time to get enlightenment.

 

Enlightment is not a dead word.

 

It is a direction.

 

If you really enlightment you can see enlightenment in many different texts that there is no any enlightment word in it.

 

This feels to me like an attack, and it feels to me that you have a strong attachment to this person and his school.

 

Maybe to you his heart is blocked, but maybe to him it isn't. Accusing him of something just makes a fight.

 

Zhuangzi says everything is right and wrong from some perspective - please refer to this chapter. Zhuangzi also shows that what we see isn't always what it appears to be, in chapter 7e, tl Brook Ziporyn:

 

 

There was a shaman in Zheng named Jixian who could discern whether people would live or die, survive or perish. He knew how long their lives would be and what turns their fortunes would take, giving the exact year, month, week, and date for each event like some kind of god. When the people of Zheng caught sight of him, they would turn and run. Liezi went to see him, and his mind became quite intoxicated. He returned and told Huzi about it, saying, "I used to  think your Course was the ultimate, but now I see that there is something beyond it."

 

Huzi said, "I have only finished showing you its outward ornament, not yet its inner reality. Have you really mastered this Course? A multitude of hens with no rooster can produce no chicks. You use the Course to browbeat the world, insisting that people believe in it. Because you try to control others, you have allowed yourself to be controlled. That is why this man was able to read your fortune on your face. Bring him here, and I will show myself to him."

 

The next day, Liezi brought the shaman to see Huzi. He came out and said to Liezi, "Alas! Your master is as good as dead! That is not a living being in there! He has at most a few weeks left. I saw something very strange in him, something resembling wet ashes."

 

Liezi went in, his collar drenched with tears, and reported these words to Huzi. Huzi said, "Just now I showed him the patterns of the earth, sprouting forth without any strenuous rumblings and without straightening themselves out. He must have seen in me the incipient impulse of the Virtuosity that blocks everything out. Try bringing him again."

 

The next day, Liezi brought the shaman once more. He came out and said, "Your master is lucky to have met me! He's recovering; there are healthy signs of life! I could see his blockage moving into balance."

 

Liezi went in and reported this to HUzi, who said, "Just now I showed him Heaven's soil. Impervious to both names and realities, renown and profit, the incipient impulse nonetheless comes forth from the heels. He must have seen in me the incipient impulse of all that flourishes. Try bringing him again."

 

The next day, he brought the shaman yet again to see Huzi. He came out and told Liezi, "Your master is an incoherent mess, I have no way to read his face. Have him get himself together, then I'll come back to do a reading."

 

Liezi went in and reported this to Huzi, who said, "Just now I showed him the vast gushing surge in which no one thing wins out. He must have seen in me the incipient impulse that balances all energies. The frothing of a salamander's swirl is the reservoir. The frothing of still water is the reservoir. The frothing of flowing water is the reservoir. The reservoir has nine names, nine aspects, and I have showin him three of them. Try bringing him again."

 

The next day, Liezi brought him to see Huzi again. But before the shaman had even come to a halt before him, he lost control of himself and bolted out the door. Huzi said, "Go after him!" But Liezi could not catch up with him. He returned and reported to Huzi, "He's gone! I cannot catch him!"

 

Huzi said, "Just now I showed him what I am when not yet emerged from my source -- something empty and serpentine in its twistings, admitting of no understanding of who or what. So he saw it as something endlessly collapsing and scattering, something flowing away with every wave. This is why he fled."

 

That was when Liezi realized he had not yet learned anything. He returned to his home and did not emerge for three years, cooking for his wife, feeding the pigs as if he were serving guests, remaining remote from all endeavors and letting all the chiseled carvings of his character return to an unhewn blockishness. Solitary like a clump of soil, he planted his physical form there in its place, a mass of chaos and confusion. And that is how he remained to the end of his days.

 

 

 

Please note that I am trying hard to show this is only my perspective - I am not trying to tell you you are right or wrong. I very much like having you here with us. I just don't like seeing people try to hurt each other. It creates bad qi. Even when people do bad things, I think we should still try to nurture harmony and try not to react to them.

 

As for me, I am worthless. I am sorry if the qi from my words hurts you. I do not claim to have achieved anything.

[Arkady Shadursky]

Excuse me.

 

Can you tell us why your heart block so badly?

To me, argument like "excuse me, I personally dislike you" is not an appropriate one in a scientific discussion.

Could you please provide us an argued answer to the questions raised:

Have you found this being translated as "enlightenment" in some dictionary?

Have you seen a Daoist alchemy text describing this happening suddenly, without passing traditional stages?

And how about the second post from A.A.Khokhlov you might have missed:

 

Thank you, it points us to quite an interesting direction. Lets continue your research.

 

So ancient Shuowen Jiezi dictionary says about 悟 wu: "悟，覺也".

And here is what Shuowen Jiezi says about about 覺 itself: "覺，寤也"

 

 

And this 寤 means - realize (understand), awake from sleep, awaken.

It can not be translated as "awareness".

 

It seems Shuowen says that 悟 finally means understand, awake.

 

Sincerely waiting for your answers.

---

Best Regards,

Arkady

Edited January 17, 2017 by Arkady Shadursky

[Kara_mia]

Excuse me.

 

Can you tell us why your heart block so badly?

 

I hope that Someone who seems to know everything about the enlightenment or sudden enlightenment can really enlightenment.

 

Not just know the knowledges of sudden enlightenment or sudden enlightment.

 

I can receive your chi from your words.

 

I hope you can enlightment first before you teach your students what is enlightenment.

 

 

 

I personally often find your posts offensive and emotional and it clearly shows one's meditation level. But I believe people should avoid judging others like this. As it remains no more than a personal attitude and harms one's practice.

 

All the best,

Kara

[Kar3n]

I personally often find your posts offensive and emotional and it clearly shows one's meditation level. But I believe people should avoid judging others like this. As it remains no more than a personal attitude and harms one's practice.

 

All the best,

Kara

 

 

 

Most everyone in this thread has been moderated on some level for personal comments and should know the rules of the forum by now. Please stay on topic, worry about your own posting style first, and use the report button if something crosses the line going further.

 

Best,

Kar3n

TDB Mod Team

[Ormus]

Because this term of sudden enlightenment is mentioned by me in one of privious treads I see now new topic about this.Good.

 

First to me i strange that Master AA.Khokhlov ask that we use Daoist terms and not Buddhist.Why strange?Because Wu Liu Pai is actualy mix of Daoist and Buddhist tradition and actualy all Quanzhen including Yu Xian Pai along with Daoism and Buddhism include Confucianism.Not to mention that putative founder of the WLP  Master Wu Shouyang and later Master Liu Huayang(himself Chan Buddhist) used and write about the same goal and path of Daoism and Buddhism.Normaly they speak about early Buddhism before VI Chan Patriarch but again it is Buddhism.WLP is know as Xian Fo Pai,school of Immortals and Buddhas.So what is wrong with Buddha and Buddhism?

 

I myself prefer Daoism and I think it is older then Buddhism and maybe even Buddhism is founded by Daoist.But still I respect Buddhism as path even if they today maybe dont have real Ming Gong.

 

My friend Fabrizio Pregadio write in his encyclopedia on topic Liu Huayang that after putative teaching he recived from Master Wu he still searched and later he have chance to me one Chan Master(I forgot his name) who give him finnal transmission for realisation of Xianhood.What about this info?

 

Dont forgett that oldest Daoist schools like Shang Qing Pai have influnce of Buddhism in them and not to mention Ling Bao Pai which is much influenced by Buddhism and jet this 2 schools corpus is recognised as highest and superior teachings on all Daozhang and are part of highest ordination level 1 which Master Michael Saso write about.

 

And last see Icon of all Nei Dan, Master Zhang Boduan.He himself started as Confucian and later become Daoist,but when he write his Wuzhen Pian he used Chan Buddhist  text and poems to describe Xing Gong and also Sudden Enlightment.He say he didnt find better words and text then this from Chan Buddhism.There is later legend that at the end of his life he become Chan Buddhist.I say this even if I think that most superior of all Nei Dan schools is his Nanzong Pai.

 

Master AAKhokhlov criticise one member here why he used Confucian terms and not anyone whant to mention that actualy Xing and Ming we all use here are Confucian terms.How about that?

 

Then Taoist Text is criticised when he clearly provide link from Daoist Encyclopedia which clearly show that Patriarch Master of Nanzong Pai legendary Bai Yuchan speak about sudden elightenment and he speak this because this are teachings of Master Zhang Boduan.I am not advocate of Taoist text nor other not named person but I am on the side of truth.

 

Actualy I have long years of conversation and communication with members of Wu Liu Pai and consider them as friends and Wu Liu Pai as good school.So consider this before fire is directed toward me.

 

Damdao as student of WLP and YXP even claim that Enlightement dont exsist in Daoism which is simply not true and negate innate capacity of Xing(Yuan Shen) which is the same in all.Enlightement exsist in all religions and all paths and this is simple truth!

Patriarch Master of Longmen Pai Liu I Ming and Patriarch Master of Nanzong Pai Bai Yuchan speak of Sudden Englightment and I realy dont know why we argue further.Or maybe they are not big authority.If they are not I like to see some original source from Daozhang which say that Enlightenment dont exsist in Daoism be it sudden or not?If there is no such source then this is just personal claim or expirience.To point also towards Master Chen Zhixu who you are to be suprised was Master of both Yu Xian Pai and Nanzong Pai and he speak that he was Enlightened when he even just hear the words and explanations of his Master.

 

Enlightenment include Awareness and Understanding and it is Awakened state of Non Duality.To be Enlightened means that you know your Xing(Yuan Shen) and that you see your True Face like in Buddhism.

 

What is important is to know that to be Enlightened dont means that you are Tian Xian.

 

Just to point to work Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji as book transsmited by spirit writing(mediumship) someone mentioned it here.This is known fact as it is the case for the book Secret of the Golden Flower atributed to Master Lu Dong Bin,not to mention many famous books from Nanzong Pai corpus which is alegedly channeled by Zhang Boduan after his death and that almost complete Nu Dan(Female Alchemy) corpus is recive by spirit mediums.I mention this because this book of Zhongli Quan was OP for one topic which give rise here for flame wars.I find one work for example which clearly criticise Zhong Lu corpus and give much talk about why this is not writen by Zhongli Quan and Lu Dong Bin themselfs so of dubious origin.To whom to belive chanelled spirits,mediums from cults like Shamans(Wu) or to living Masters?

 

One member posted here part of Wang Li Ping book which show how Longmen used Wai Dan(laboratory elixir) method.Clearly it is not real Elixir because from description he have mercury poisoning and real Elixir dont use ordinary mercury in Wai Dan.This rise much questions.......does Longmen Pai dont trust in Nei Dan and need to use help from Wai Dan?Whay Longmen Pai "Immortal" Masters dont know that for real Elixir native mercury is not used?Did they at all have complete transmission of both Nei Dan and Wai Dan?Think about it........

 

Ormus

[Daeluin]

The conclusion I got regarding the waidan pill, was that it was used to purify the body as described, pushing all toxins out through the pores, from the entirety of the body. This does seem an appropriate usage for such a toxic pill. I believe I read someone say here that the other main goal in this was to seal more of the spirit into the body, though I don't know specifics.

 

The excerpt goes on to call this overall experience of the entire excerpt as one of the preliminary stages. I've heard others make similar criticisms, but to me it seems strange to make judgments on the practices in a story written for lay people. To say what is written about is not neidan may indeed be accurate, but to then conclude that Wang Liping and Longmen Pai do not practice neidan does not follow logic. The same holds for the published practice manual, which Wang Liping notes is the first in a series. People judge its contents as though they are the entire system, often without even having attended the seminars, let alone tested the system to see where sincere hard work under its teachers guidance will lead. Not that there is anything wrong with this - it is a given that reality is ever being disguised.

[Bindi]

Because this term of sudden enlightenment is mentioned by me in one of privious treads I see now new topic about this.Good.

 

First to me i strange that Master AA.Khokhlov ask that we use Daoist terms and not Buddhist.Why strange?Because Wu Liu Pai is actualy mix of Daoist and Buddhist tradition and actualy all Quanzhen including Yu Xian Pai along with Daoism and Buddhism include Confucianism.Not to mention that putative founder of the WLP  Master Wu Shouyang and later Master Liu Huayang(himself Chan Buddhist) used and write about the same goal and path of Daoism and Buddhism.Normaly they speak about early Buddhism before VI Chan Patriarch but again it is Buddhism.WLP is know as Xian Fo Pai,school of Immortals and Buddhas.So what is wrong with Buddha and Buddhism?

 

I myself prefer Daoism and I think it is older then Buddhism and maybe even Buddhism is founded by Daoist.But still I respect Buddhism as path even if they today maybe dont have real Ming Gong.

 

My friend Fabrizio Pregadio write in his encyclopedia on topic Liu Huayang that after putative teaching he recived from Master Wu he still searched and later he have chance to me one Chan Master(I forgot his name) who give him finnal transmission for realisation of Xianhood.What about this info?

 

Dont forgett that oldest Daoist schools like Shang Qing Pai have influnce of Buddhism in them and not to mention Ling Bao Pai which is much influenced by Buddhism and jet this 2 schools corpus is recognised as highest and superior teachings on all Daozhang and are part of highest ordination level 1 which Master Michael Saso write about.

 

And last see Icon of all Nei Dan, Master Zhang Boduan.He himself started as Confucian and later become Daoist,but when he write his Wuzhen Pian he used Chan Buddhist  text and poems to describe Xing Gong and also Sudden Enlightment.He say he didnt find better words and text then this from Chan Buddhism.There is later legend that at the end of his life he become Chan Buddhist.I say this even if I think that most superior of all Nei Dan schools is his Nanzong Pai.

 

Master AAKhokhlov criticise one member here why he used Confucian terms and not anyone whant to mention that actualy Xing and Ming we all use here are Confucian terms.How about that?

 

Then Taoist Text is criticised when he clearly provide link from Daoist Encyclopedia which clearly show that Patriarch Master of Nanzong Pai legendary Bai Yuchan speak about sudden elightenment and he speak this because this are teachings of Master Zhang Boduan.I am not advocate of Taoist text nor other not named person but I am on the side of truth.

 

Actualy I have long years of conversation and communication with members of Wu Liu Pai and consider them as friends and Wu Liu Pai as good school.So consider this before fire is directed toward me.

 

Damdao as student of WLP and YXP even claim that Enlightement dont exsist in Daoism which is simply not true and negate innate capacity of Xing(Yuan Shen) which is the same in all.Enlightement exsist in all religions and all paths and this is simple truth!

Patriarch Master of Longmen Pai Liu I Ming and Patriarch Master of Nanzong Pai Bai Yuchan speak of Sudden Englightment and I realy dont know why we argue further.Or maybe they are not big authority.If they are not I like to see some original source from Daozhang which say that Enlightenment dont exsist in Daoism be it sudden or not?If there is no such source then this is just personal claim or expirience.To point also towards Master Chen Zhixu who you are to be suprised was Master of both Yu Xian Pai and Nanzong Pai and he speak that he was Enlightened when he even just hear the words and explanations of his Master.

 

Enlightenment include Awareness and Understanding and it is Awakened state of Non Duality.To be Enlightened means that you know your Xing(Yuan Shen) and that you see your True Face like in Buddhism.

 

What is important is to know that to be Enlightened dont means that you are Tian Xian.

 

Just to point to work Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji as book transsmited by spirit writing(mediumship) someone mentioned it here.This is known fact as it is the case for the book Secret of the Golden Flower atributed to Master Lu Dong Bin,not to mention many famous books from Nanzong Pai corpus which is alegedly channeled by Zhang Boduan after his death and that almost complete Nu Dan(Female Alchemy) corpus is recive by spirit mediums.I mention this because this book of Zhongli Quan was OP for one topic which give rise here for flame wars.I find one work for example which clearly criticise Zhong Lu corpus and give much talk about why this is not writen by Zhongli Quan and Lu Dong Bin themselfs so of dubious origin.To whom to belive chanelled spirits,mediums from cults like Shamans(Wu) or to living Masters?

 

One member posted here part of Wang Li Ping book which show how Longmen used Wai Dan(laboratory elixir) method.Clearly it is not real Elixir because from description he have mercury poisoning and real Elixir dont use ordinary mercury in Wai Dan.This rise much questions.......does Longmen Pai dont trust in Nei Dan and need to use help from Wai Dan?Whay Longmen Pai "Immortal" Masters dont know that for real Elixir native mercury is not used?Did they at all have complete transmission of both Nei Dan and Wai Dan?Think about it........

 

Ormus

 

Just trying to get my head around this, I read this article http://goldenelixir.com/jindan/nanzong_beizong.html which pretty well distinguishes between Northern and Southern lineages of Neidan and their intrinsic difference in perception of immediate versus gradual realisation:

 

In the Beizong mode of Neidan self-cultivation, the immediate (dun) realization of one's Nature is equivalent to attaining the Elixir.

 

Beizong places emphasis on Xing (one's inner Nature, which is innately perfected), and accordingly focuses on practices meant to purify one's mind ("emptying the mind," "extinguishing the mind," "ending thoughts"). The underlying doctrines make use of Buddhist notions and terms — in particular, of the doctrine of "seeing one's Nature" (jianxing).

 

The Nanzong mode of Neidan self-cultivation, instead, consists of a gradual (jian) process that focuses on the cultivation of Ming at the initial stage, but is concluded with the cultivation of Xing.

 

The Nanzong mode of cultivation places initial emphasis on Ming (one's life as an individual being, including one's "destiny" or function in existence as a whole, and one's endowment of "vital force"), and focuses on practices that intend to compound the Elixir by purifying the main components of the human being: Essence, Breath, and Spirit (jing, qi, shen). These practices follow the sequence Essence → Breath → Spirit → Dao, and consist of a process typically arranged into three main stages, the last of which lies in cultivating one's Xing, or inner Nature.

 

The Beizong/Quanzhen cultivation mode is defined as "first Xing then Ming" (xianxing houming), while the Nanzong cultivation mode is defined as "first Ming then Xing" (xianming houxing).

 

 

 

​

Edited January 21, 2017 by Bindi

[Bindi]

The term Nanzong, or Southern lineage, was coined by Xiao Tingzhi (fl. 1260), but the earliest lineage was probably fonnulated by a student of the Fujianese Bai Yuchan (1194- ca. 1227), who traced the tradition from Zhang Boduan ~iajffij (fl. 11th c.) through Shi Tai ::E"~ (d. 1158), Xue Shi  (d. 1175/1191), and Chen Nan (d. 1213) to Bai Yuchan. The tradition developed during the Northern Song in the regions around Chengdu, Sichuan, where Zhang Boduan was employed as a minor official. This tradition adopted the Zhong-Lti tradition, Peng Xiao's (d. 955) Cantongqi commentary, and the fire-phasing terminology of jindan. Practices included earlier neidan traditions, Buddhist quietiSm, and thunder rituals. This tradition and its deities remained a hallmark of Sichuan nudan into the 20th century.

 

Beizong , or Northern lineage, refers to the lineage created by Xiao Tingzhi. Xiao divides the lineage from a tradition beginning several generations before Lord Lao through the lord to Liu Haichan (fl. 1031). who is named the teacher of Zhang Boduan and Wang Chongyang (1113-1170). In Xiao's description, Zhang went on to form the Nanzong, while Wang and his seven disciples formed the Beizong. (Esposito 1997: 161) The difference between these lineages rests on the relative priority of xing and ming  cultivation; both schools agree that both xing and ming must be cultivated. (See Definitions of Terms below.) Liu Cunyan reads this distinction as a difference between solo and dual cultivation. (Liu 1984: 184-196)

 

http://www.world-news-research.com/NeidanTantra.html

[damdao]

(...)

 

Damdao as student of WLP and YXP even claim that Enlightement dont exsist in Daoism which is simply not true and negate innate capacity of Xing(Yuan Shen) which is the same in all.Enlightement exsist in all religions and all paths and this is simple truth!

(...)

 

Please, read what I wrote. I even provided Sanscrit-Chinese equivalents.

And yes, there is no enlightenment.

And... what exists in all traditions perhaps is not the same.

Even in buddhism different schools have different approaches.

[Taoist Texts]

How about that?

 

Oh this is all about getting a marketing advantage. To distinguish your product from the competition you must: 

 

1. say that your product has certain marketable features that the competing products do not have

and

2. say that your product does NOT have certain unmarketable features  that the competing products DO have.

 

But, why would enlightenment be unmarketable to the targeted customers? Simple. Because they all are already enlightened.

[EmeraldHead]

On ‎17‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 3:15 AM, Daeluin said:

is reported to have said that the majority of people who become enlightened do not survive it and die

IS BS. It's an energy like chi. You already make som