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#1 ankhmor

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 10:40 AM

Hello.

 

Perhaps this is rude, definitely selfish -- i searched for a Daoist forum just to ask this one question.

 

The question is asked on buddhism stackexchange, so far receiving no satisfactory answers. http://buddhism.stac...om/q/18738/5849

 

There is a sense that i'm asking for too much, asking a question that can not be answered in words. Perhaps the Daoist community has a different take, a more hands on answer.

Perhaps this question is of interest to others as well.

 

Thank you.

 

 

PS. To add a life example to the question:

Sometime in the morning i wake up with an urge to pee. Sometimes i can stay in bed for 10-20 minutes, for no good reason, knowing well that there is no escape from this bodily function. In that state, i examine my volition: i can easily get up, and just as easily stay in bed. So what phenomenon makes that choice? Why is it that one day i get up right away, and other days it can take "forever", yet feeling that the choice is "right at the fingertips"? Who is, what is volition?

 

Again, thank you.


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#2 Marblehead

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 03:53 PM

Hello ankhmor, and welcome.

 

Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go.

 

Please take the time to read the two posts pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum terms and rules. This covers all you need to know when getting started.

 

For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day.

 

Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you,

 

Marblehead and the TDB team

 

 

Hi ankhmor,

 

Well, the last time I checked our "Buddhist Discussions" sub-forum I found the folks to be very peaceful, helpful and pretty open-minded. You might have better luck getting responses to your question by starting a thread in that sub-forum.  (I don't talk Buddhist.)

 

You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started.

 

May you enjoy your time here.

 

Marblehead


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#3 Kar3n

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:33 PM

Welcome to the bums :)
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Recognize mind has never once had a thought that wasn't your own choice already.
Mindfully choose compassionate thoughts that are a pleasure to experience and the urge to silence thought passes.
With no urges, the need to cling to some thought passes with it.
Unlimited love,
-Bud

#4 awaken

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 04:40 AM

Ego shen
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#5 SeekerOfHealing

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 04:40 AM

Can you post here the question?
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#6 Jeff

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:04 AM

Hello.
 
Perhaps this is rude, definitely selfish -- i searched for a Daoist forum just to ask this one question.
 
The question is asked on buddhism stackexchange, so far receiving no satisfactory answers. http://buddhism.stac...om/q/18738/5849
 
There is a sense that i'm asking for too much, asking a question that can not be answered in words. Perhaps the Daoist community has a different take, a more hands on answer.
Perhaps this question is of interest to others as well.
 
Thank you
 
PS. To add a life example to the question:
Sometime in the morning i wake up with an urge to pee. Sometimes i can stay in bed for 10-20 minutes, for no good reason, knowing well that there is no escape from this bodily function. In that state, i examine my volition: i can easily get up, and just as easily stay in bed. So what phenomenon makes that choice? Why is it that one day i get up right away, and other days it can take "forever", yet feeling that the choice is "right at the fingertips"? Who is, what is volition?
 
Again, thank you.


Very interesting and profound question. But, as I am sure you are aware, such a question drives to the underlying nature of perceived reality. So the answer you seek, will be different from different traditions. Since you quoted post was with the buddhist concept of pure and impure thoughts, I will respond with a further response based in that perspective...

Issues, fears, karma, etc... are stored inside the body-mind "bubble" that drive the sense of self. An impure thought is when stimuli hit those stored structures and there is an automated response. Someone says something and it resonate with you and you get mad. This is essentially cause and effect.

More Pure thoughts are when you have cleared out the issues and fears to such an extent that you can make a more open and free decision in the world of cause and effect. Or someone says the same thing that made you mad, but instead you consciously decide how you want to respond as to what is best at that moment.

In your morning pee example, there are sort of two dimensions to your question. Both the relative strength of the cause and effect (how bad you have to go because of how much you drank the night before), and also the level of your conscious "freedom of thought" based upon you relative mental clarity (level of pure thoughts). The greater your level of "pure thoughts", the more actual volition you have to not be whipsawed by stimuli hitting you.

At a more personal level, you have reached the level where you have opened your heart or you could say middle dantien. So I would say that you have started to have limited degrees of what you call "volition". But, there is still a huge subconscious of "stuff" that is unconsciously driving you if you are looking for true volition, or being relatively "free" in the realm of cause and effect.

Best, Jeff
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No worries... I am only speaking on my own authority.

#7 ankhmor

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 01:44 PM

Thank you for the warm welcomes :)

 

Can you post here the question?

 

To clarify, I'm looking for the Daoist perspective, not the Buddhist perspective, though in general I don't really care which perspective it is as long as the answer is there.

 

The question copied from Buddhism stackexchange is below:

 

 

This is a third attempt at formulating a question. This question and this question have been asked, but not formulated in a way that conveyed the question.

So now, in a third attempt, the formulation shall be: what is volition?

EDIT: The answers still do satisfy the question in the mind, although they are answers to the question on 'paper'. Apologies for the lack of skill in phrasing the question. Let us see if the following clears up what is being asked:

 

Imagine life as a series of moments; one moment after another in a line infinitely long. Imagine that there is a decision that must be made, to chose A or B, both equally likely to be chosen (for whatever reason, such as lack of understanding which is the right choice). This decision is present only in a single moment within the infinite series of moments. What is that single moment of choice? What is that single moment made of, what substance, what phenomena? Who/What is doing the choosing? Why A over B, or B over A, if both are equally likely?

 

At a more personal level, you have reached the level where you have opened your heart or you could say middle dantien. So I would say that you have started to have limited degrees of what you call "volition". But, there is still a huge subconscious of "stuff" that is unconsciously driving you if you are looking for true volition, or being relatively "free" in the realm of cause and effect.

Best, Jeff

 

Thank you Jeff.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate on your answer.

It seems true, what you say about me having some degree of "volition" (is there a better word?). Sometimes there is a feeling that it can be "touched", but it always stays out of reach, too elusive to be studied.

 

How would one get closer to "touching" volition?

 

 

Thank you,

Anton


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#8 Brian

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 02:02 PM

Thank you for the warm welcomes :)


To clarify, I'm looking for the Daoist perspective, not the Buddhist perspective, though in general I don't really care which perspective it is as long as the answer is there.

The question copied from Buddhism stackexchange is below:



This is a third attempt at formulating a question. This question and this question have been asked, but not formulated in a way that conveyed the question.
So now, in a third attempt, the formulation shall be: what is volition?
EDIT: The answers still do satisfy the question in the mind, although they are answers to the question on 'paper'. Apologies for the lack of skill in phrasing the question. Let us see if the following clears up what is being asked:

Imagine life as a series of moments; one moment after another in a line infinitely long. Imagine that there is a decision that must be made, to chose A or B, both equally likely to be chosen (for whatever reason, such as lack of understanding which is the right choice). This decision is present only in a single moment within the infinite series of moments. What is that single moment of choice? What is that single moment made of, what substance, what phenomena? Who/What is doing the choosing? Why A over B, or B over A, if both are equally likely?


Thank you Jeff.
If you don't mind, could you elaborate on your answer.
It seems true, what you say about me having some degree of "volition" (is there a better word?). Sometimes there is a feeling that it can be "touched", but it always stays out of reach, too elusive to be studied.

How would one get closer to "touching" volition?


Thank you,
Anton

Through raising our energetic vibrations and dissolving our filters, we expand and clarify our awareness -- and this allows us to better understand that which is.

Edited by Brian, 07 January 2017 - 02:03 PM.

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"Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow."

#9 Jeff

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 02:42 PM

...
Thank you Jeff.
If you don't mind, could you elaborate on your answer.
It seems true, what you say about me having some degree of "volition" (is there a better word?). Sometimes there is a feeling that it can be "touched", but it always stays out of reach, too elusive to be studied.

How would one get closer to "touching" volition?

Thank you,
Anton

Volition is probably as good a word as any. In Taoism, what you seek is an aspect of being a "sage". Happy to eloborate...

Think of it kind of like there are layers of consciousness. Residing at the lower layers, one is driven by more base desires or more classic ego stuff. While it seems like you choose things, it is mostly like autopilot responses. The heart (where you currently reside) is sort of the beginning of higher consciousness functioning. In some traditions, they would call that beginning to be wake up (not Buddhism or Taoism).

The things that block or "obstruct" you from having free volition are those issues and fear based upon past memories. Getting more volition is the result of effectively clearing out (or letting go of) those issues and fears that obstruct from your true "sage" nature. Spiritual practices in various traditions are about clearing out all of that "crap". When you pick a tradition, you sort of pick their practices and tools for that clearing process.

Your almost touching it could be a feeling of a couple of things. At your level, there are sort of two different directions that people go. They tend to be either more heart or mind based. This leads to either feeling more energy stuff (taoist like) or more quiet mind (buddhist like) as one goes to higher levels of consciousness. Additionally, there are some who feel a deeper opening in what I would call the "inner heart" or higher self.

But, in all cases you can think of it like you realize more at a subconscious level and kind of know it, but can't quite touch it (or bring it into your conscious awareness).

If you want, with your permission, I can do a deep remote energy body read on you and try to get you more specifics. Just let me know, either here on in a private pm. Also, here are a few words from the Tao Te Ching you might like on the topic...

CHAPTER 22 (SFH version)

Yield and overcome.
Bend but follow the flow.

Empty yourself of everything, then you can full.
Have little but gain a lot.
Have much and be confused.

Therefore the sage embraces the one.
He sets an example to the world.
By not putting on a display, he shines forth.

Having no preferences he is open to all.
By never boasting or bragging he can never falter.

By knowing this and refusing that,
He knows of the ways of man.
Thus he can avoid a quarrel.

The ancient masters were always empty.
This emptiness was always whole.
Yield and overcome and be forever full,
and so all things will come to you.

Best, Jeff

Edited by Jeff, 07 January 2017 - 02:44 PM.

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No worries... I am only speaking on my own authority.

#10 Bindi

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 04:50 PM

...

At a more personal level, you have reached the level where you have opened your heart or you could say middle dantien. So I would say that you have started to have limited degrees of what you call "volition". But, there is still a huge subconscious of "stuff" that is unconsciously driving you if you are looking for true volition, or being relatively "free" in the realm of cause and effect.

Best, Jeff

 

Jeff, with absolutely no actual comprehension of neidan or dantians you really shouldn't be telling people so flippantly that they have opened their middle dantian.


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#11 Spotless

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 09:58 PM

The fabrication that is what you call you has no volition.

What you will do is wholly dependent upon your resistance.

It is the frequency within which you "live" and "see" the world.

If it occurs to you to raise your vibrations this is to circumvent the frequency you are already in resistance to. It will appear to work and will appear as though you are doing it - but it is a trick you are placating yourself with.

The unborn spotless presence is the wind in your movements - the volition is entirely in accord with your resistance.

Karma is born of your resistance and it is within the body that it will be played out. In this refinement towards the unborn the light is progressively uncovered and covered and uncovered and covered again and again - this heat brings increasing radiance and will eventually give rebirth to itself. A crystallized presence that will transmit any light with no heat, no refraction, no inertia, no wilfullness.

In the end the "you" that wishes to know of volition will never have volition - it will never become Awakened or Enlightened.
Upon Awakening that "you" will no longer exist. Fragments of youness will continue to play out but the attachment in this youness has expired and continues to fade.
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#12 roger

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 12:27 AM

Hello.

 

Perhaps this is rude, definitely selfish -- i searched for a Daoist forum just to ask this one question.

 

The question is asked on buddhism stackexchange, so far receiving no satisfactory answers. http://buddhism.stac...om/q/18738/5849

 

There is a sense that i'm asking for too much, asking a question that can not be answered in words. Perhaps the Daoist community has a different take, a more hands on answer.

Perhaps this question is of interest to others as well.

 

Thank you.

 

 

PS. To add a life example to the question:

Sometime in the morning i wake up with an urge to pee. Sometimes i can stay in bed for 10-20 minutes, for no good reason, knowing well that there is no escape from this bodily function. In that state, i examine my volition: i can easily get up, and just as easily stay in bed. So what phenomenon makes that choice? Why is it that one day i get up right away, and other days it can take "forever", yet feeling that the choice is "right at the fingertips"? Who is, what is volition?

 

Again, thank you.

 

Your "divine nature" makes the choice. That's why everything is in "divine order." All is as God wills it.

 

You have no choice but to do the will of your divine nature, it's YOUR will.


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#13 awaken

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 04:09 AM

In daoist, shi Shen means ego Shen.

Shi Shen make these desicion by yii, 意

Yii, 意,means thoughts and the ability to think.

In daoist, The Yii is hidden in the chi of spleen.
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#14 SeekerOfHealing

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 07:20 AM

There is no one who make a decision, it's just complex mechanism related to our desires which makes and calculate decision. Decision is made by your brain in context of your desires.

#15 thelerner

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 08:09 AM

The great teachers of the world have stated: There are no dumb questions.

 

As middling to poor student, I question that.  Maybe they are right.  There are no dumb questions, but some questions are asked at the wrong time. 

 

What is volition- is a very head heavy inquiry that may seem profound but will probably have zero impact on your life.  Better to spend time in practice or honing awareness then playing mind games.  Unless you have a cozy beverage, a few friends around and its after 9pm.   


Push hard to get better, become smarter, grow your devotion to the truth, fuel your commitment to beauty, refine your emotional intelligence, hone your dreams, negotiate with your shadow, cure your ignorance, shed your pettiness, heighten your drive to look for the best in people, and soften your heart. A creed from Pronoia

Where we have stopped dancing, singing, being enchanted by stories, or finding comfort in silence is where we have experience the loss of soul. Dancing, singing, storytelling, and silence are the four universal healing salves. ~ Gabrielle Roth

#16 SeekerOfHealing

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 10:16 AM

I have the same feeling, this is just plain stupid question. Answering that question will bring three more questions, the more you answer the more question will pop up like cutting off hydra head. Better ask "how to realize myself?" then all answers are just there.




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