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#49 Pilgrim

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:39 PM

You and I are on same page.  I couldn't agree more with you.  Some times I get seething anger with the traveling gurus that you are talking about.
 
But having spent almost half of my life in India and other half in US, I realize, that I learned these truths only after spending a better part of my life in US.  I can see why it would be so hard for some in India to understand what you had described above.  Reading some books that you mentioned as a young earnest seeker from India, they felt awesome, everything uttered believable.
 
In order to comprehend what you stated fully, I had to be at the receiving end.  Right here in US.  :mellow:
 
[Edited to add  --  As dwai pointed out there are exceptions, real gems.  Ramana Maharishi did not travel anywhere, the world traveled to him.]


I knew of Ramana Maharishi since I was 14 always loved his story, always respected him, always felt good about him.
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#50 Pilgrim

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:42 PM

in my experience, more than the traveling gurus, it's their coterie of chelas who are the bigger problem. I took initiation in The Art of Living's Sudarshan Kriya at one point. The Kriya itself was quite good and the first teacher I had was a wonderful person. However, as I delved deeper into the organization there were several things I didn't like, wrt. the chelas who assumed positions of power around Sri Sri RaviShankar and essentially are gatekeepers. An ordinary person like me can't even imagine having 1x1 time with Sri Sri.
 
I suspect that is the case with other big-time Gurus like Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev or Amma (though my teacher visits Amma a lot). In terms of attainment, my teacher, who I consider to be a jeevanamukta personally attested to the spiritual levels of Satya Sai Baba, Sri Sri RaviShankar and Amma.
 
Of these, Satya Sai Baba is perhaps the most controversial, as there has been much malignment in mainstream media about him, especially in India. Yet, I feel the power of Satya Sai Baba even now...in my meditations and every stage of my life, via the auspices of my teacher - A Taiji and Daoist Master, who also happens to be a disciple of Satya Sai Baba.
 
Based on what I've learnt from my teacher, I can say that real Masters have pure love and joy emanating from their being. But he also warned me that often when a student goes near a master, the Master's radiance will start cleaning junk out of the student's system. During that time, the student can feel miserable. So it is a very delicate tightrope walk, in all...


Agreed concerning the Chelas.

Not surprised, proximity can cause such things.

We should discuss your Guru and what you do more Tajik it sounds interesting.

#51 Cauvery

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 01:57 PM

I was lucky that I could visit Ramanashram in Thiruvannamalai few times.  They have the room intact, where Ramana Maharishi spent his days.  Interesting to take a hike on Arunachala hill, to the place on top where Ramana Maharishi spent some time.

 

These things or even the ashram may not hold any significance.  In my personal experience, my mind just calmed down whenever I was in Ramanashram or even in the vicinity.  When I sat at the meditation hall in Ramanashram for first time, I knew nothing about meditation, but mind calmed down and went inward automatically.  Could be the proximity of others meditating there.


Edited by Cauvery, 11 January 2017 - 02:00 PM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#52 dwai

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 02:06 PM

I was lucky that I could visit Ramanashram in Thiruvannamalai few times.  They have the room intact, where Ramana Maharishi spent his days.  Interesting to take a hike on Arunachala hill, to the place on top where Ramana Maharishi spent some time.

 

These things or even the ashram may not hold any significance.  In my personal experience, my mind just calmed down whenever I was in Ramanashram or even in the vicinity.  When I sat at the meditation hall in Ramanashram for first time, I knew nothing about meditation, but mind calmed down and went inward automatically.  Could be the proximity of others meditating there.

 

last summer when I visited india, my plan to was to go to Ramanashram but circumstances prevented my going there. I was however pleasantly compensated when two of my very old friends (one whom I started to teach Taiji) ended up being direct disciples of Kriya Yoga Master Sri Vigyanananda Giri whose ashram is in a place called Palampur in Uttaranchal, and I got an opportunity to speak with their Guru over the phone.


Edited by dwai, 11 January 2017 - 02:07 PM.

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#53 Cauvery

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 05:57 AM

last summer when I visited india, my plan to was to go to Ramanashram but circumstances prevented my going there. I was however pleasantly compensated when two of my very old friends (one whom I started to teach Taiji) ended up being direct disciples of Kriya Yoga Master Sri Vigyanananda Giri whose ashram is in a place called Palampur in Uttaranchal, and I got an opportunity to speak with their Guru over the phone.

 

Interesting.  What is Taiji?  I have never come across or even heard before.  You say, you teach it, can you please care to expand?

 

After coming here to TDB, in a very short time frame, I have come across so many new things.  New perspectives on the practices I was doing already.  Just goes to show, how much is out there vs. how little I know.

 

I kept myself confined to limited views and boundaries -- I don't regret.  As Pilgrim pointed out,  life and discovery is a joy.

It is indeed refreshing to open myself to the many possibilities.  I believe in prarabdha karma that certain things are destined.  This was (is) the time for me to come out and see more, open up to possibilities.


Edited by Cauvery, 12 January 2017 - 05:58 AM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#54 Pilgrim

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 06:38 AM

Good for you Cauvery.


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#55 dwai

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Posted 12 January 2017 - 07:40 AM

Interesting.  What is Taiji?  I have never come across or even heard before.  You say, you teach it, can you please care to expand?

 

After coming here to TDB, in a very short time frame, I have come across so many new things.  New perspectives on the practices I was doing already.  Just goes to show, how much is out there vs. how little I know.

 

I kept myself confined to limited views and boundaries -- I don't regret.  As Pilgrim pointed out,  life and discovery is a joy.

It is indeed refreshing to open myself to the many possibilities.  I believe in prarabdha karma that certain things are destined.  This was (is) the time for me to come out and see more, open up to possibilities.

 

I have a Personal practice forum where I have some notes from my taijiquan (aka tai chi chuan) practice. 

Taiji is a short name we often use for the internal chinese martial art called taijiquan. 

 

Taiji or Tai Chi mean Supreme Ultimate (represented by the yin-yang symbol which is called a taijitu). Quan or Chuan means "Fist". So The Martial Art is one that uses the principles of Yin and Yang (or Taiji).

 

My PPF -- http://www.thedaobum...forum/333-dwai/

 

I have shared some videos of the practice here.


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#56 Cauvery

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 11:57 AM

Dwai, after I read few posts from your personal practice forum, all I can say is "wow".  I have to admit I don't understand much.  The vocabulary and the terms used are entirely new to me.  I got a glimpse or very basic idea as to what it is.  I am familiar with the Tai Chi, even tried to practice some basic level before.  I remember reading about the difference between Chi and Qi, that I confuse with. Personally, I don't feel a lot of affinity for this at this moment, but who knows?  There may be a reason to everything that happens; nothing wrong in knowing things and expanding awareness.

 

Coming off of that topic and to my practices, I feel a pull more towards the kriya yoga practices.  This pull was there for several months before I came to TDB. May be there was some reason to my initial attraction to the kriya yoga.   I was not chasing or even looking for it, it came to me.  This tradition where I was initiated does not even do lot of PR, or sell like Pilgrim pointed out.  After Pilgrim narrated the experiences and explained the difficulties in organizing a weekend event, the only thing I could compare it was arranging kids birthday parties or small family events.  Organizing a simple kids party for few hours, with a handful of kids, involves lot of planning, work, time & money.   Can't compare this nearly to an entire weekend event with adults.

 

When I look back, I wonder if the sum total of what the entire (small) batch donated/paid would have covered even a fraction of the cost of that event.  Each person was individually initiated into the kriya yoga by the teacher, followed by 2 full days of teaching, Q&A sessions and one or two freshly cooked meal(s) a day.  The teacher and may be some others traveled from out of state,they had to stay some where.  When I travel for my work, I expect to stay in a decent place, my transportation expenses reimbursed. I have to conclude that it is from the generous giving of others, in terms of money, time and hard work, that event was facilitated.

 

I never believed that spirituality or yoga or even religion for that matter should be free.  There is this attitude that I have seen particularly in people from India.  I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way.  I am was also born and brought up in India and have immense respect and immeasurable gratitude to the culture, traditions and to the environment in which I was brought up.  

But, this feeling of entitlement, that yoga, spirituality and religion should be entirely free is completely wrong.  I have some good friends, very nice people.  Many of them feel that they can donate money, but a set amount should not be asked for any yoga lessons or religious services.  An acharya or guru should not ask any money (fixed fee for services especially) and take only what was offered after the learning or their services.  They fail to see that they themselves expect so much from the world, to be compensated for their work.  Demand a salary and befits for the job.  The priests or the yoga teachers also incur expenses, many of them have family, kids to take care, their kids also go to school, they also have medical costs just like any one else.   Many live modestly.   It is clearly wrong to say, these people cannot ask a set amount of money for their services.  I can only hope this mindset changes.  I could get labeled that I became a westerner.  Well, I am partly Westerner and don't feel anything wrong with that (even proud of it).

 

There seems to be 2 extremes.  On the one side, we talked about gurus, motivated entirely by money or power, doing mass initiations and have powerful organizations.  It looks sometimes that there is nothing different between them or CEO or top executives of an organization.  Well, let them run their organizations like any other business would, as long as they spare the moral lessons, and the altruistic act.  It is a shame that many such spiritual organizations that make tons of money claim they are purely charities, get tax breaks, hardly pay anything to the teachers and workers at the grassroots at lower levels.  It's all service for our own good.  May be.  But there is also plain exploitation.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, at the grassroots levels, we see many people contributing generously, working hard -- whether it be yoga, or any religious denomination.  Many barely surviving for their essential needs, while some take a lot and exploit in this category also.  It is because of those that exploit, that the people that are sincere and in need suffer.   In India many temple priests don't have a set salary.   They are ridiculed, looked down upon, if they openly express happiness about the dakshina they get for their hard work or services.  There are no kings to support them as it used to be and a democratic government can't compensate for spiritual or religious services.  How can these people make a living?  If some of these priests or teachers set a fixed amount of fee for their services, we hear the cries, how can they do this?  In tradition, the guru or acharya is not supposed to ask for any money.  After the entire teaching is over, the student gives whatever guru dakshina he/she feels to give, (in some instances the guru asks at the end of years of teaching).  If only people had some conscience and paid a proper guru dakshina, these teachers wouldn't have ended up in the state to ask for a fixed amount of money for honest services they provide.  The balance between these two extremes seems to be critical at this junture; unless the entire thing shatters and becomes one big ridicule.  May be this happened already.

 

Look at the AYP fiasco.  The altruistic, "advanced yoga should be open source available to one and all free"  ( I never subscribed to this view, this was what they projected themselves as).  There were moral lessons.  Later from "open source, readily available to one and as their right",  it seems to have changed.  New teachings are available to "only those who can pay a monthly subscription with auto-pay".  I point out again and again, I do NOT see anything wrong with this.  They are asking for a very reasonable and moderate amount in exchange for enormous amount of work that has gone in.  It's just the fallacy, they had to come to see that their own stated fundamental beliefs or foundation has to be shattered.   They had to run the organization in the same exact way that they pointed the finger, criticized and laughed others at.


Edited by Cauvery, 13 January 2017 - 01:43 PM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#57 dwai

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 12:09 PM

Dwai, after I read few posts from your personal practice forum, all I can say is "wow".  I have to admit I don't understand much.  The vocabulary and the terms used are entirely new to me.  I got a glimpse or very basic idea as to what it is.  I am familiar with the Tai Chi, even tried to practice some basic level before.  I remember reading about the difference between Chi and Qi, that I confuse with. Personally, I don't feel a lot of affinity this at this moment, but who knows?  There may be a reason to everything that happens; nothing wrong in knowing things and expanding awareness.

 

Coming off of that topic and to my practices, I feel a pull more towards the kriya yoga practices.  This pull was there for several months before I came to TDB. May be there was some reason to my initial attraction to the kriya yoga.   I was not chasing or even looking for it, it came to me.  This tradition where I was initiated does not even do lot of PR, or sell like Pilgrim pointed out.  After Pilgrim narrated the experiences and explained the difficulties in organizing a weekend event, the only thing I could compare it was arranging kids birthday parties or small family events.  Organizing a simple kids party for few hours, with a handful of kids, involves lot of planning, work, time & money.   Compare this to an entire weekend event!

 

When I look back, I wonder if the sum total of what the entire (small) batch donated/paid would have covered even a fraction of the cost of that event.  Each person was individually initiated into the kriya yoga by the teacher, followed by 2 full days of teaching, Q&A sessions and one or two freshly cooked meal(s) a day.  The teacher and may be some others traveled from out of state,they had to stay some where.  When I travel for my work, I expect to stay in a decent place, my transportation expenses reimbursed. I have to conclude that it is from the generous giving of others, in terms of money, time and hard work, that event was facilitated.

 

I never believed that spirituality or yoga or even religion for that matter should be free.  There is this attitude that I have seen particularly in people from India.  I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way.  I am was also born and brought up in India and have immense respect and immeasurable gratitude to the culture, traditions and to the environment in which I was brought up.  

But, this feeling of entitlement, that oga, spirituality and religion should be entirely free is completely wrong.  I have some good friends, very nice people.  Many of them feel that they can donate money, but a set amount should not be asked for any yoga lessons or religious services.  An acharya or guru should not ask any money and take only what was offered after the learning or their services.  They fail to see that they themselves expect so much from the world, to be paid for their work.  The priests or the yoga teachers also incur expenses, many of them have family, kids to take care, their kids also go to school.   Many live modestly.   It is clearly wrong to say, these people cannot ask a set amount of money for their services.  I can only hope this mindset changes.  I could get labeled as I became a westerner.  Well, I am partly Westerner and don't feel anything wrong with that (even proud of it).

 

There seems to be 2 extremes.  On the one side, we talked about gurus, motivated entirely by money or power, doing mass initiations and have powerful organizations.  It looks sometimes that there is nothing different between them or CEO or top executives of an organization.  Well, let them run their organizations like any other business would, as long as they spare the moral lessons, and the altruistic act.  It is a shame that many such spiritual organizations that make tons of money claim they are purely charities, get tax breaks, hardly pay anything to the teachers and workers at the grassroots at lower levels.  It's all service for our own good.  May be.  But there is also plain exploitation.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, at the grassroots levels, we see many people contributing generously, working hard -- whether it be yoga, or any religious denomination.  Many barely surviving for their essential needs, while some take a lot and exploit in this category also.  It is because of those that exploit, that the people that are sincere and in need suffer.   In India many temple priests don't have a set salary.   They are ridiculed, looked down upon, if they openly express happiness about the dakshina given on plate.   If some of these priests or teachers set a fixed amount of fee for their services, we hear the cries, how can they do this?  In tradition, the guru or acharya is not supposed to ask for any money.  After the entire teaching is over, the student gives whatever guru dakshina he/she feels to give, (in some instances the guru asks at the end of years of teaching).  If only people had some conscience and paid a proper guru dakshina, these teachers wouldn't have ended up in the state to ask for a fixed amount of money for honest services they provide.  The balance between these two extremes seems to be critical at this junture; unless the entire thing shatters and becomes one big ridicule.  May be this happened already.

 

Look at the AYP fiasco.  The altruistic, "advanced yoga should be open source available to one and all free"  ( I never subscribed to this view, this was what they projected themselves as).  There were moral lessons.  Later from "open source, readily available to one and as their right",  it seems to have changed.  New teachings are available to "only those who can pay a monthly subscription with auto-pay".  I point out again and again, I do NOT see anything wrong with this.  They are asking for a very reasonable and moderate amount in exchange for enormous amount of work that has gone in.  It's just the fallacy, they had to come to see that their own stated fundamental beliefs or foundation has to be shattered.   They had to run the organization in the same exact way that they pointed the finger, criticized and laughed others at.

 

Dakshina is a very interesting topic to discuss.

I'm of the opinion that if the teacher can afford it, they can give it for no charge. However, the student has to pay daskhina in the form of respect for the teacher and the tradition, and dutiful practice.

 

Maybe it's just me, but most people today (anywhere in the world), tend to have this sense of entitlement and approach teachers like they would a service provider. It's almost like they want to say "Hey, you are providing a service and I'm paying you for it".

 

But that is not the case...relationship between a student and a teacher in the spiritual traditions is not just a financial transaction for a service rendered. The Teacher is akin to a Parent or at least a loving friend in this case. So, one has to approach the teacher in that way. With love, sincerity and respect. 

 

But then again, some make a living from teaching and they should definitely charge a fee. That being said, what a student gets out of the "transaction" is far more beneficial to the student than the teacher. I cannot even ascribe a value to what my teachers have taught me...nothing I do is sufficient to repay them adequately. It is a huge debt I owe them, which I cannot pay back. So I express my gratitude, sincerity and love to them. And pledge to pay it forward to worthy seekers, to the best of my ability. 


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#58 Pilgrim

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 02:15 PM

Excellent

#59 Pilgrim

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 02:23 PM

Times change but one thing remains constant, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone is providing in exchange for something. This is very basic. The view of taking without giving back is flawed. Money is not the root of all evil, it just took the place of apples, goats, chickens etc, as an agreed upon means of compensation.

If I arrive at the bank with an ox and a goat in exchange for the mortgage payment just watch how fast foreclosure and a bill for cleaning up the floor happens.
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#60 Cauvery

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 06:29 AM

Dakshina is a very interesting topic to discuss.

I'm of the opinion that if the teacher can afford it, they can give it for no charge. However, the student has to pay daskhina in the form of respect for the teacher and the tradition, and dutiful practice.

 

Maybe it's just me, but most people today (anywhere in the world), tend to have this sense of entitlement and approach teachers like they would a service provider. It's almost like they want to say "Hey, you are providing a service and I'm paying you for it".

 

But that is not the case...relationship between a student and a teacher in the spiritual traditions is not just a financial transaction for a service rendered. The Teacher is akin to a Parent or at least a loving friend in this case. So, one has to approach the teacher in that way. With love, sincerity and respect. 

 

But then again, some make a living from teaching and they should definitely charge a fee. That being said, what a student gets out of the "transaction" is far more beneficial to the student than the teacher. I cannot even ascribe a value to what my teachers have taught me...nothing I do is sufficient to repay them adequately. It is a huge debt I owe them, which I cannot pay back. So I express my gratitude, sincerity and love to them. And pledge to pay it forward to worthy seekers, to the best of my ability. 

 

Dwai, I used to feel 100% about the way you feel.  I still agree mostly to what you have said. But, I beg to differ on certain points, as my experiences taught me.

 

You mentioned that if the teacher can afford it, then he should give it free.  I can't in all honesty agree with this, because it sets bad precedence.  It is out of pouring compassion, teachers give things free.  The students end up with the feeling of entitlement, that what they receive has to be free.  Everything is fine, until we come along a teacher who can't afford to give it free in practical terms.  The students used to receiving free, expect the same here.  Ends up in trouble unnecessarily.

 

I agree with the notions that this is not financial transaction, that teacher is like parent and should be approached in such way.  These are deep ingrained in me.   I have personally got so much from so many, that I am eternally grateful. 

 

Though it is not meant as a financial transaction, we can't take finance out of it entirely in the world we live in today.  Even scriptures -- from the guru disciple tradition --  insist that there must be a guru dakshina paid in return.  They didn't say money.   But, the times we live in demand a token of financial contribution back.  One can't simply take, take & take all for free. I know you did not mention this, you have pointed out give back in some way.

 

Students should have the compassion to give back.   Unfortunately many want to take the lion's share and give back a little, whether it be finance or whichever way.  Many feel (sadly) this has to be free entirely.   They will donate what they seem fit, when they seem fit (if they seem fit)  When a student just takes it all free entirely and does not feel the need to give back, with the realities of time and place where they live, then there is no difference between him/her and a common thief in terms of conscience -- imho.

 

In kriya context, which is overlapping with our discussion, Ennio is one example of this pouring compassion, out of which he has generously given away.

 

 

Times change but one thing remains constant, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone is providing in exchange for something. This is very basic. The view of taking without giving back is flawed. Money is not the root of all evil, it just took the place of apples, goats, chickens etc, as an agreed upon means of compensation.

If I arrive at the bank with an ox and a goat in exchange for the mortgage payment just watch how fast foreclosure and a bill for cleaning up the floor happens.

 

You have summarized what I wanted to say with short and precise words.


Edited by Cauvery, 16 January 2017 - 07:32 AM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#61 dwai

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 09:56 AM

Dwai, I used to feel 100% about the way you feel.  I still agree mostly to what you have said. But, I beg to differ on certain points, as my experiences taught me.

 

You mentioned that if the teacher can afford it, then he should give it free.  I can't in all honesty agree with this, because it sets bad precedence.  It is out of pouring compassion, teachers give things free.  The students end up with the feeling of entitlement, that what they receive has to be free.  Everything is fine, until we come along a teacher who can't afford to give it free in practical terms.  The students used to receiving free, expect the same here.  Ends up in trouble unnecessarily.

 

I agree with the notions that this is not financial transaction, that teacher is like parent and should be approached in such way.  These are deep ingrained in me.   I have personally got so much from so many, that I am eternally grateful. 

 

Though it is not meant as a financial transaction, we can't take finance out of it entirely in the world we live in today.  Even scriptures -- from the guru disciple tradition --  insist that there must be a guru dakshina paid in return.  They didn't say money.   But, the times we live in demand a token of financial contribution back.  One can't simply take, take & take all for free. I know you did not mention this, you have pointed out give back in some way.

 

Students should have the compassion to give back.   Unfortunately many want to take the lion's share and give back a little, whether it be finance or whichever way.  Many feel (sadly) this has to be free entirely.   They will donate what they seem fit, when they seem fit (if they seem fit)  When a student just takes it all free entirely and does not feel the need to give back, with the realities of time and place where they live, then there is no difference between him/her and a common thief in terms of conscience -- imho.

 

In kriya context, which is overlapping with our discussion, Ennio is one example of this poring compassion, out of which he has generously given away.

 

 

 

You have summarized what I wanted to say with short and precise words.

 

My first teacher used to explain the concept of payment this way -

 

In the old days, there was a Gurukula system (both in India as well as in China, Japan, etc). The students would go live either with the Guru in the Ashram or at a monastery. There, the payment was in the form of doing chores, cleaning, cooking, washing clothes etc. That is why teachers didn't necessarily need monetary dakshina.

 

In modern times, if a teacher's livelihood depends on the teachings then there should be a fee associated with it.


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#62 Cauvery

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 08:49 AM

My first teacher used to explain the concept of payment this way -

 

In the old days, there was a Gurukula system (both in India as well as in China, Japan, etc). The students would go live either with the Guru in the Ashram or at a monastery. There, the payment was in the form of doing chores, cleaning, cooking, washing clothes etc. That is why teachers didn't necessarily need monetary dakshina.

 

In modern times, if a teacher's livelihood depends on the teachings then there should be a fee associated with it.

 

I realize this is off topic, we are off topic already, may be this discussion needs to be seperated into a different post.   

You brought up the Gurukula system.  Interestingly something I wanted to bring up here and in Kriya topic in different context.  This was the only way of schooling in India for millinneas, until just about 200 years back.  I am going to make some factual observations, with my opinions stated as my views.

The meaning and value of the Gurukula system is entirely forgotten.  In his analysis, summation and in the infamous speech to the British parliament, Lord Thomas Babbington Macaulay, talks about the need to uproot Gurukula system and bring about the western system of education in India.  His work and summation resulted in the English Education Act of 1835.  The result of which is the establishment the Madras university, followed by Calcutta and Bombay universities.   He was the pioneer of western education in India, laid the foundations of new system replacing the Gurukula.  I read that he even carefully laid out the syllabus with others help.

Though western education has worked on India's favor in various ways, in terms of industrialization, financial growth, economics, and the compulsory teaching of English.   English as key language of the communication clearly brought numerous benefits.  Enabled people to communicate differently, acted as bridge, even filling the gap in communications between the various regions in India.  Acted as a key element  that brought India to the world stage once again.  If we take the spirituality part out, this looks entirely positive.

But the motives of Lord Macaulay as he stated in his own speech were different and ulterior.  He saw the western education as the only way to truly succeed in subjugating the people of India.  He made no pretense to hide his intentions, he goes on to state them clearly, and even lays out steps.  This infamous speech to British parliament and his in-depth study of people of India,  conducted painfully over several years, are declassified and available for anyone to find and read online or in books.  He says that only by to taking away the spiritual heritage, India can truly be conquered.  In that sense he succeeded.  He has written on his report that India was conquered so many times, by Persians, the Sultans, the Moguls, etc.   None seemed to succeed in truly conquering the people of India  -- to shatter their core beliefs, what they value and truly claim a victory.

Without prejudices (if that is possible),  I got to hand it over to Lord Macaulay.  He is truly brilliant.  He succeeded in what dynasties of rulers failed to do over centuries.  Truly conquered India and changed it forever -- be it positive or negative depending on each persons take.

The Gurukula system was rooted out once and for all.  Luckily, glimpses of it exist to this day, to give a clear picture to understand how it is.


Edited by Cauvery, 16 January 2017 - 08:50 AM.

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#63 dwai

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 01:01 PM

I realize this is off topic, we are off topic already, may be this discussion needs to be seperated into a different post.   

You brought up the Gurukula system.  Interestingly something I wanted to bring up here and in Kriya topic in different context.  This was the only way of schooling in India for millinneas, until just about 200 years back.  I am going to make some factual observations, with my opinions stated as my views.

The meaning and value of the Gurukula system is entirely forgotten.  In his analysis, summation and in the infamous speech to the British parliament, Lord Thomas Babbington Macaulay, talks about the need to uproot Gurukula system and bring about the western system of education in India.  His work and summation resulted in the English Education Act of 1835.  The result of which is the establishment the Madras university, followed by Calcutta and Bombay universities.   He was the pioneer of western education in India, laid the foundations of new system replacing the Gurukula.  I read that he even carefully laid out the syllabus with others help.

Though western education has worked on India's favor in various ways, in terms of industrialization, financial growth, economics, and the compulsory teaching of English.   English as key language of the communication clearly brought numerous benefits.  Enabled people to communicate differently, acted as bridge, even filling the gap in communications between the various regions in India.  Acted as a key element  that brought India to the world stage once again.  If we take the spirituality part out, this looks entirely positive.

But the motives of Lord Macaulay as he stated in his own speech were different and ulterior.  He saw the western education as the only way to truly succeed in subjugating the people of India.  He made no pretense to hide his intentions, he goes on to state them clearly, and even lays out steps.  This infamous speech to British parliament and his in-depth study of people of India,  conducted painfully over several years, are declassified and available for anyone to find and read online or in books.  He says that only by to taking away the spiritual heritage, India can truly be conquered.  In that sense he succeeded.  He has written on his report that India was conquered so many times, by Persians, the Sultans, the Moguls, etc.   None seemed to succeed in truly conquering the people of India  -- to shatter their core beliefs, what they value and truly claim a victory.

Without prejudices (if that is possible),  I got to hand it over to Lord Macaulay.  He is truly brilliant.  He succeeded in what dynasties of rulers failed to do over centuries.  Truly conquered India and changed it forever -- be it positive or negative depending on each persons take.

The Gurukula system was rooted out once and for all.  Luckily, glimpses of it exist to this day, to give a clear picture to understand how it is.

 

Yes...Macaulay was the author of demise of India's traditional knowledge systems. The British did more harm in their 300 years history with India, than 800 years of islamic conquests had prior to the arrival of the British.

 

Yeah I know it's all done and over with...and that, this is what was meant to happen. That is the way of Kali Yuga....to quote a famous sarcastic song -

 

"Sri Rama chandra, keh gaye siya se, aisa kalyug aayega. Hansa chugega daana bhayya, kowwa roti khaayega"

Translated to english it means -

 

Sri Rama had once told Sita, his wife that a terrible Kali Yuga is on its way. In this yuga, the Swan will be left hunting for grains, while the Crow happily eats bread....


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