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#33 Pilgrim

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:04 PM

I'd not heard of AYP (or perhaps had but not paid attention) before. I looked at their website and it seems dodgy...as is the guy Yogani. I'm not saying he is, but seems that way to me.
 
Especially if he is trying to insult the towering figures of spiritual systems. The "scandalous" things that they are suggesting about divine beings like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa is a well documented, systematic attack on primarily indian sources of spiritual knowledge, through the auspices of one Wendy Doniger and her coterie of students and sycophants (Jeffrey Kripal was the guy who first introduced the homosexual pedophilia allegation on RKP...), using dubious and debunked techniques of freudian psychoanalysis.
 
http://rajivmalhotra...nvading-sacred/
 
I have been personally involved in this book (I developed their first website) and have interacted with some of these authors and editors, whom I can vouch for in terms of both level of knowledge (expertise) as well as character (wonderful human beings). 
 
 
They are giving away a free download of the book as well -- http://rajivmalhotra...acred-Final.pdf
 
I don't understand the knee-jerk reaction most westerners have to the word "Guru"! If you don't want one, don't get one. Don't sit and denigrate someone else's Guru. Guru means teacher, guide, etc. In the Indian system, Guru is often considered the spiritual parent. Just like the dynamics between an adult westerner and his/her parent is different from that of an adult indian, similarly is the case with a Guru.
 
At the same time, not every teacher is your Guru. Calling someone a Guru is a mutually consented upon relationship...you have to accept the Guru as much as the Guru accepts you. 
 
Just a small rant...glad to explain further if anyone cares to understand what I mean...


Perfectly said, please do go on.
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#34 dwai

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:30 PM

Perfectly said, please do go on.

 

If you insist... ;)

 

There is, in my humble opinion, a huge difference in how the indian tradition deals with the parents (elders) and Gurus (similar level of respect given as parents) and the Western tradition. 

 

My westerner friends here, please don't take this in the negative way, I'm only pointing out the differences that are apparent to me. Feel free to correct me that way.

 

For instance, my mother spends time equally between my sister's and my home, with full privileges of a respected member of the family for extended periods of time (sometimes 1-2 years at a time). That is the way we grew up in India...elder parents live with adult children, dependent on them, just as in our young age, we were dependent on our parents. There is no shame in living in the same home as your parents...in it is a sign of good upbringing for a adult offspring to take care of one's elderly parents. I believe this is called filial piety (and most asian cultures have this concept).

 

However, in the West, I hear groans and complaints if one's mother was visiting and staying longer than 1 week. 

 

 

That is the cultural context, in which a Guru-Disciple relationship is viewed in the traditional way. In my opinion, one should not blindly accept someone as his/her Guru. But once done, the same level of filial piety is to be exhibited. That's easier said than done, even in India today. So I can understand the consternations of a westerner. I don't agree with it personally, but I do recognize it.


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#35 Cauvery

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:36 PM

I'd not heard of AYP (or perhaps had but not paid attention) before. I looked at their website and it seems dodgy...as is the guy Yogani. I'm not saying he is, but seems that way to me.

 

Especially if he is trying to insult the towering figures of spiritual systems. The "scandalous" things that they are suggesting about divine beings like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa is a well documented, systematic attack on primarily indian sources of spiritual knowledge, through the auspices of one Wendy Doniger and her coterie of students and sycophants (Jeffrey Kripal was the guy who first introduced the homosexual pedophilia allegation on RKP...), using dubious and debunked techniques of freudian psychoanalysis.

 

I am so glad that finally some one cared to read my post, and look through the link that I was talking about; instead of turning this entirely about me, or coming up with justifications. It's a joke, it's an offhand comment, etc.  This is what every bully in school says when confronted.  I thought it was "funny!".  What is "funny" for one, sometimes is a cruel and calculated injustice to another.  I needed some place to bring this up.

From the outset they make it look like AYP does not encourage such activities.  But there are subtle ways to promote certain ideas.  Sometimes what one does not say, or keeping silence (in this case bringing this link to the attention of practitioners and placing it in "public" forum), when action is warranted, is equally bad as doing the deed.  If AYP does not promote such views, they should not have entertained that post, had lengthy discussion, justifications and let this post sit for several years -- in "public" forum.

 

That strippingthegurus is an attack against eastern culture & traditions with the focus in one place as you pointed out.  The attack is cleverly done in a way that makes it look like, the authors were attacking all systems in the world indiscriminately.    It is an intelligently orchestrated systematic attack with ulterior motives.


http://rajivmalhotra...nvading-sacred/

 

I have been personally involved in this book (I developed their first website) and have interacted with some of these authors and editors, whom I can vouch for in terms of both level of knowledge (expertise) as well as character (wonderful human beings). 

 

 

They are giving away a free download of the book as well -- http://rajivmalhotra...acred-Final.pdf

 

I just read through the first page on the site.  Looks very interesting, I will read the entire book when I get some time.

 

I don't understand the knee-jerk reaction most westerners have to the word "Guru"! If you don't want one, don't get one. Don't sit and denigrate someone else's Guru. Guru means teacher, guide, etc. In the Indian system, Guru is often considered the spiritual parent. Just like the dynamics between an adult western

 

At the same time, not every teacher is your Guru. Calling someone a Guru is a mutually consented upon relationship...you have to accept the Guru as much as the Guru accepts you. 

 

Just a small rant...glad to explain further if anyone cares to understand what I mean...

 

Yes, I care to understand.  Please explain further.


Edited by Cauvery, 10 January 2017 - 03:09 PM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#36 Brian

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 02:53 PM

If you insist... ;)
 
There is, in my humble opinion, a huge difference in how the indian tradition deals with the parents (elders) and Gurus (similar level of respect given as parents) and the Western tradition. 
 
My westerner friends here, please don't take this in the negative way, I'm only pointing out the differences that are apparent to me. Feel free to correct me that way.
 
For instance, my mother spends time equally between my sister's and my home, with full privileges of a respected member of the family for extended periods of time (sometimes 1-2 years at a time). That is the way we grew up in India...elder parents live with adult children, dependent on them, just as in our young age, we were dependent on our parents. There is no shame in living in the same home as your parents...in it is a sign of good upbringing for a adult offspring to take care of one's elderly parents. I believe this is called filial piety (and most asian cultures have this concept).
 
However, in the West, I hear groans and complaints if one's mother was visiting and staying longer than 1 week. 
 
 
That is the cultural context, in which a Guru-Disciple relationship is viewed in the traditional way. In my opinion, one should not blindly accept someone as his/her Guru. But once done, the same level of filial piety is to be exhibited. That's easier said than done, even in India today. So I can understand the consternations of a westerner. I don't agree with it personally, but I do recognize it.


Multi-generation households or extended households (maybe not under the same roof but in close & frequent contact and in a mutually supportive relationship) used to be customary around here (at least in my part of "the West" -- which we regionally call "The South") but this seems to be a rapidly diminishing cultural value, the loss of which I think robs the youngest generation while it devalues the oldest.
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#37 Pilgrim

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 03:07 PM

If you insist... ;)
 
There is, in my humble opinion, a huge difference in how the indian tradition deals with the parents (elders) and Gurus (similar level of respect given as parents) and the Western tradition. 
 
My westerner friends here, please don't take this in the negative way, I'm only pointing out the differences that are apparent to me. Feel free to correct me that way.
 
For instance, my mother spends time equally between my sister's and my home, with full privileges of a respected member of the family for extended periods of time (sometimes 1-2 years at a time). That is the way we grew up in India...elder parents live with adult children, dependent on them, just as in our young age, we were dependent on our parents. There is no shame in living in the same home as your parents...in it is a sign of good upbringing for a adult offspring to take care of one's elderly parents. I believe this is called filial piety (and most asian cultures have this concept).
 
However, in the West, I hear groans and complaints if one's mother was visiting and staying longer than 1 week. 
 
 
That is the cultural context, in which a Guru-Disciple relationship is viewed in the traditional way. In my opinion, one should not blindly accept someone as his/her Guru. But once done, the same level of filial piety is to be exhibited. That's easier said than done, even in India today. So I can understand the consternations of a westerner. I don't agree with it personally, but I do recognize it.


In the United States in the 1960's there was a huge movement that destroyed the cultural norms. Ever since then the people have been struggling to define themselves as a culture.

Divorce became a very big thing by the 1970's shattered families the norm. This was the era of the Hippie if it feels good generation, a selfish lot that was too good for solid values.

Parents ceased to be parents and children became burdens, the older world war 2 generation was at a loss how to deal with their selfish insane drug addict Baby Boomer offspring, that they had spoiled.

The revolution was not so bad there were things that needed changed but the mistake was tearing something down and then just being greedy self indulgent people failing to replace it with anything. By the 1980's these people became the self indulgent I am #1 Yuppies.

Parents who were never parents have simply not earned the bonds to be welcome in their offsprings home, sadly the traveling gurus from India have not behaved in a way here to have earned good places in hearts or minds.

What is really sad though is because of all the badly behaving gurus from India over the decades coming here and establishing cults, the American people are moving more into materialism due to the broken promises and scepticisim it has caused.

In my lifetime I have seen a shift away from broken families and the quick fix of divorce so let us just say the revolution is taking allot longer to make something better than any of us want.
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#38 Cauvery

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 03:25 PM

Parents who were never parents have simply not earned the bonds to be welcome in their offsprings home, sadly the traveling gurus from India have not behaved in a way here to have earned good places in hearts or minds.

 

Well said.  Many times, we just look at one side -- kids not caring for parents.  May be if parents acted like parents, the kids would have cared for them.  Yes, there are cultural implications.

 

Ultimately, we get back what we pour in.  If we pour in love, we get back love.  If we pour in indifference, we get back indifference.  If we cared, we would be cared.

 

Contrary to the general impression, I have seen many people in west taking care of their parents and being there for them.   Sadly, these days I see so many in India neglecting their parents.  Wherever I see this neglect, east or west, many times there is underlying cause and effect.

 

I have met many people in west with true (not blind misguided) devotion to their gurus.    Perhaps these gurus conducted themselves in a way to merit the true devotion from their followers.  Unfortunately they are in minority.


Edited by Cauvery, 10 January 2017 - 03:43 PM.

Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#39 dwai

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:24 PM

I am so glad that finally some one cared to read my post, and look through the link that I was talking about; instead of turning this entirely about me, or coming up with justifications. It's a joke, it's an offhand comment, etc. This is what every bully in school says when confronted. I thought it was "funny!". What is "funny" for one, sometimes is a cruel and calculated injustice to another. I needed some place to bring this up.
From the outset they make it look like AYP does not encourage such activities. But there are subtle ways to promote certain ideas. Sometimes what one does not say, or keeping silence (in this case bringing this link to the attention of practitioners and placing it in "public" forum), when action is warranted, is equally bad as doing the deed. If AYP does not promote such views, they should not have entertained that post, had lengthy discussion, justifications and let this post sit for several years -- in "public" forum.

That strippingthegurus is an attack against eastern culture & traditions with the focus in one place as you pointed out. The attack is cleverly done in a way that makes it look like, the authors were attacking all systems in the world indiscriminately. It is an intelligently orchestrated systematic attack with ulterior motives.

I just read through the first page on the site. Looks very interesting, I will read the entire book when I get some time.


Yes, I care to understand. Please explain further.


This is a battle I don't personally wage anymore, as I just don't have the energy for it. However, many of my friends are active in changing minds and hearts of ordinary people and are actually making big inroads with the current Indian government (which is the only one in the past 70 years, ironically, friendly towards Hindu traditions and culture).

In the past, the marxist/communist and post-modern humanists had a vice-like grip over public opinion and governmental policies in India, doing everything possible to continue destroying traditional culture and knowledge systems like the sepoys of the former British Raj.

These type of attacks usually go along with a process that is called "digestion" and "U-turn". Here a Westerner approaches and adopts the lifestyle and practical requirements to learn the traditional eastern system (this is more prevalent for Indian spiritual traditions, though off late I'm seeing it being exhibited with Taijiquan as well). They spend time and learn the system. Then they separate from the parent system (Guru and ashram for instance), and start teaching things in their "own" way. This is the digestion process.

Soon, it becomes an avenue to do the U-turn -
  • Monetize by creating a "secular" and patented system out of it, franchise, making money in the process.
  • Remove all traces of the parent tradition from the newly created system
  • Start denying and then eventually denigrating the very source of their knowledge

EDIT: putting the proverbial cherry on top....

What is the end result of the digestion process? What happens to that which was consumed and digested? It comes out as shit! And that's exactly what we get as a by-product of these digestions.

Edited by dwai, 11 January 2017 - 06:04 AM.

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#40 Cauvery

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 04:46 PM

 

https://sg.theasianp...renting_advice/

 

Cause and Effect

When you have problems with your kids, look for the cause of the problems. Sometimes we get so carried away looking at the symptoms of a child’s problems that we end up ignoring the root cause. If your child is usually good and then suddenly starts acting out, try not to focus too much on the fact that he is acting out, but question why he is doing it.

Has there been a sudden change in his life? Is he having problems in school? Look at the big picture and try to find the cause.

Culture cannot be taught, it must be caught

In the Bhagavad Geeta it is clearly stated that “yad yad acarati sresthas tat tat evetaro janah.” Translated, it means “people, follow the leader.” If we want children to follow a particular way of life, we must ourselves live that way. Doing otherwise is hypocrisy.

 

The full verse from Gita:

yad yad acarati sresthas tat tad evetaro janah

sa yat pramanam kurute lokas tad anuvartate

 

The translation "leader" for srestha (purusha) does not do justification in my opinion.  The statements following the first line provide further clarity.  By walking the talk (sa yat pramanam kurute), and as a result of their own conduct in the world as an example,  people follow such great maha purushas (lokas tad anuvartate).  There is no need for the guru to teach explicitly, no need to collect money and do mass initiations.  Just by watching how they conduct themselves in the world, the seekers follow.

 

Due to many dubious gurus in recent times, the entire guru-disciple tradition itself has been outcast.

 

Gifted is the person who comes across such a guru, that teaches by his conduct. entering into the mutual consenting guru-disciple relationship dwai mentioned.


Edited by Cauvery, 11 January 2017 - 06:45 AM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#41 Cauvery

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:37 AM

This is a battle I don't personally wage anymore, as I just don't have the energy for it. However, many of my friends are active in changing minds and hearts of ordinary people and are actually making big inroads with the current Indian government (which is the only one in the past 70 years, ironically, friendly towards Hindu traditions and culture).

 

I also don't engage in this battle anymore.  Sometimes,  I get ticked by something like that AYP post and respond strongly.  Just in a day or two, I feel it is useless to fight this.

 

I was also looking at this from a wider context, besides India and Hindu tradition.  The mere hypocrisy of promoting and defending one's own system at the cost of ridiculing other traditions and great masters of the world.


Edited by Cauvery, 11 January 2017 - 06:39 AM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#42 dwai

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 06:46 AM

I also don't engage in this battle anymore. Sometimes, I get ticked by something like that AYP post and respond strongly. Just in a day or two, I feel it is useless to fight this.

I was also looking at this from a wider context, besides India and Hindu tradition. The mere hypocrisy of promoting and defending one's own system at the cost of ridiculing other traditions and great masters of the world.


I've seen this phenomenon in context of Chinese internal martial arts, specifically Taijiquan as well. All sorts of phoney credentials and lineages crop up and we have crazy nonsense like "western Vedic pugilistic Hellenistic long boxing" being created by phoney people out to fool the gullible and make a quick buck!

Yes it is absurd to have to put something down to show oneself in "good light". That which is true and good shines in its own light. If it doesn't, it has very limited, if not absolutely no value....
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#43 Pilgrim

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:16 AM

The Guru Disciple relationship has been misunderstood and promoted by those who are hypocrites to the point where it has lost meaning. Not only has it lost meaning but it has become something that is viewed with grave suspicion.

 

Here in the U.S. the Guru Disciple relationship is little understood and those still of an hopeful mind view it as a Quasi Mystical / Religious Relationship as has been promoted here since around 1900 by books & publications of the traveling show men from India. 

 

Here in the U.S. we have been exploited, we have been lied to repeatedly, and once the Indian Guru collects his Dakshina he does not even so much as remember you until it is time for the next initiation, which is also tied to more Dakshina. They may not even remember you then.

 

To make matters worse some of these Indian hard liner personality types give you the business about the sacredness of this and that and come equipped with all kinds of personal mythology acting like the thin line of morality in the sand. Even within their own circles.

 

Later they propose to offer further initiations via Skype for huge amounts of money, saving you the trip to California, airfare and accommodations.

 

A couple I have communicated with have wildly radical bad tempers on top of it all.

 

How nice, wow what a great sacred relationship. Act like a complete shit head and expect to have your ass kissed!!!??? Really? I don't think so!

 

This is not only in the United States but World Wide.

 

Without becoming offensive by naming names, around 1900 the Traveling Gurus started showing up here in the U.S. one of the most effective who might as well have patented the process of lying to westerners in exchange for their hopes, aspirations and cash, even wrote a book and had it professionally edited to appeal to the audience.

 

I have personally discussed these matters with certain Monks who actually have been involved with the publications.

 

Did you know according to some of these that your Guru can be as follows:

 

#1. Someone you never met.

 

#2. A picture of a dead person hanging on a wall.

 

#3. A person who even if he is alive does not so much as give you the time of day.

 

What kind of non-sense is this?

 

If you read the publications they describe a mystical, loving, wonderful relationship between a superhuman Guru who is the very picture of saintly modesty and wisdom that hides their super-normal abilities, they describe the abilities by way of romantic stories and say do not partake. All the while baiting and setting the hook, after all who would not like to live out this type of fantasy life? 

 

All it takes is the price of admission:

 

Cash to be sure but with the worst of these kinds your Hopes, Your Aspirations, Your Dreams and they will shamelessly prey upon you just like the nice people who call from India posing as Microsoft telling you they are aware of a problem with your PC please grant them access to fix it.

 

When you catch them in this they become very indignant and upset when it is they who are perpetrating a crime mostly against the elderly, it is enough to make one believe there is something drastically wrong with the moral compass of India.

 

At best it seems highly pointed to situational ethics.

 

Of course I am not saying all people from India just pointing out relevant examples.

 

The model of the Guru and Disciple has already been broken, the supposed sacredness of the supposed bond exploited.

 

As far as I am concerned a new model, one based on openness, honesty and a fair exchange in receipt for learning is far preferable.

 

After all lets be serious that has been what is going on all along, the only difference is the dishonesty of marketing of certain sources which keeps them receiving far more than they could by playing it straight.

 

I have witnessed saintly acting Indian Monks acting like complete idiots yelling at each other until they noticed I had been there all along, then the act dropped into to place. Placid faces, pious gentle manners, nodding heads etc...

 

I have been witness to traveling Guru's complaining bitterly when coming to the United States because the turn out for their coming was only 30 people,  then they go on to talk about how wonderfully spiritual Russia is where hundreds turn out to see them and they receive so much money that it becomes a burden to transfer it to India and that they actually made so much they had to pay taxes.

 

It is really old and tiresome.

 

So yes I get it how AYP came into place, the others sewed the field and made it a fertile ground to happen in when the internet took off.

 

For all of this however we of the West do owe Hoary India gratitude and thanks, people like to call Africa the cradle of Humanity.

 

I think of India as the cradle of civilization and true spirituality so even though these terrible people have come to our shores exploited us for over 100 years it is we who have gained.

 

Yes gained because you see the power of what they shared no matter how flawed the personality of the individual often parroting it.

 

No matter the lack of that individuals true realization beyond what was to eat next, the power of the spirituality of India, via the practice of the principles and the techniques, comes through in the one who will practice and especially in the one who is ripe.

 

The ripe are like good dry wood, they will catch fire swiftly or like an apple and will drop easily from the tree. Often these are people picking up in this life where they left off before.

 

The one giving is not so much important as is what is given and the one receiving. What is most important is that the one giving really cares and takes the time to personally instruct and make sure the one paying to receive is getting much more than their monies worth, that they are given the tools correctly so they can really benefit from the practice.

 

The one learning is the dimension of spiritual transmission and makes all the difference by their participation in practice.

 

The practice is not for anyone else but for themselves and when the time is right they to may become a link in the chain of transmission, the real transmission has nothing to do with your supposed elders, your lineage, nor any of the other deceptive trappings.

 

The real transmission comes from the heart of the one who is so grateful for all of the beauty that has been added to their existence as a by product of practicing the spiritual techniques of India. In this heart  they feel that if they do not pay it forward they will cry inwardly and ache maybe even burst for their fellow earnest seekers who are struggling.

 

Authority? There is no higher Authority than the desire to pay it forward that only comes from extreme gratitude.


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#44 dwai

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:43 AM

The Guru Disciple relationship has been misunderstood and promoted by those who are hypocrites to the point where it has lost meaning. Not only has it lost meaning but it has become something that is viewed with grave suspicion.

 

Here in the U.S. the Guru Disciple relationship is little understood and those still of an hopeful mind view it as a Quasi Mystical / Religious Relationship as has been promoted here since around 1900 by books & publications of the traveling show men from India. 

 

Here in the U.S. we have been exploited, we have been lied to repeatedly, and once the Indian Guru collects his Dakshina he does not even so much as remember you until it is time for the next initiation, which is also tied to more Dakshina. They may not even remember you then.

 

To make matters worse some of these Indian hard liner personality types give you the business about the sacredness of this and that and come equipped with all kinds of personal mythology acting like the thin line of morality in the sand. Even within their own circles.

 

Later they propose to offer further initiations via Skype for huge amounts of money, saving you the trip to California, airfare and accommodations.

 

A couple I have communicated with have wildly radical bad tempers on top of it all.

 

How nice, wow what a great sacred relationship. Act like a complete shit head and expect to have your ass kissed!!!??? Really? I don't think so!

 

This is not only in the United States but World Wide.

 

Without becoming offensive by naming names, around 1900 the Traveling Gurus started showing up here in the U.S. one of the most effective who might as well have patented the process of lying to westerners in exchange for their hopes, aspirations and cash, even wrote a book and had it professionally edited to appeal to the audience.

 

I have personally discussed these matters with certain Monks who actually have been involved with the publications.

 

Did you know according to some of these that your Guru can be as follows:

 

#1. Someone you never met.

 

#2. A picture of a dead person hanging on a wall.

 

#3. A person who even if he is alive does not so much as give you the time of day.

 

What kind of non-sense is this?

 

If you read the publications they describe a mystical, loving, wonderful relationship between a superhuman Guru who is the very picture of saintly modesty and wisdom that hides their super-normal abilities, they describe the abilities by way of romantic stories and say do not partake. All the while baiting and setting the hook, after all who would not like to live out this type of fantasy life? 

 

All it takes is the price of admission:

 

Cash to be sure but with the worst of these kinds your Hopes, Your Aspirations, Your Dreams and they will shamelessly prey upon you just like the nice people who call from India posing as Microsoft telling you they are aware of a problem with your PC please grant them access to fix it.

 

When you catch them in this they become very indignant and upset when it is they who are perpetrating a crime mostly against the elderly, it is enough to make one believe there is something drastically wrong with the moral compass of India.

 

At best it seems highly pointed to situational ethics.

 

Of course I am not saying all people from India just pointing out relevant examples.

 

The model of the Guru and Disciple has already been broken, the supposed sacredness of the supposed bond exploited.

 

As far as I am concerned a new model, one based on openness, honesty and a fair exchange in receipt for learning is far preferable.

 

After all lets be serious that has been what is going on all along, the only difference is the dishonesty of marketing of certain sources which keeps them receiving far more than they could by playing it straight.

 

I have witnessed saintly acting Indian Monks acting like complete idiots yelling at each other until they noticed I had been there all along, then the act dropped into to place. Placid faces, pious gentle manners, nodding heads etc...

 

I have been witness to traveling Guru's complaining bitterly when coming to the United States because the turn out for their coming was only 30 people,  then they go on to talk about how wonderfully spiritual Russia is where hundreds turn out to see them and they receive so much money that it becomes a burden to transfer it to India and that they actually made so much they had to pay taxes.

 

It is really old and tiresome.

 

So yes I get it how AYP came into place, the others sewed the field and made it a fertile ground to happen in when the internet took off.

 

For all of this however we of the West do owe Hoary India gratitude and thanks, people like to call Africa the cradle of Humanity.

 

I think of India as the cradle of civilization and true spirituality so even though these terrible people have come to our shores exploited us for over 100 years it is we who have gained.

 

Yes gained because you see the power of what they shared no matter how flawed the personality of the individual often parroting it.

 

No matter the lack of that individuals true realization beyond what was to eat next, the power of the spirituality of India, via the practice of the principles and the techniques, comes through in the one who will practice and especially in the one who is ripe.

 

The ripe are like good dry wood, they will catch fire swiftly or like an apple and will drop easily from the tree. Often these are people picking up in this life where they left off before.

 

The one giving is not so much important as is what is given and the one receiving. What is most important is that the one giving really cares and takes the time to personally instruct and make sure the one paying to receive is getting much more than their monies worth, that they are given the tools correctly so they can really benefit from the practice.

 

The one learning is the dimension of spiritual transmission and makes all the difference by their participation in practice.

 

The practice is not for anyone else but for themselves and when the time is right they to may become a link in the chain of transmission, the real transmission has nothing to do with your supposed elders, your lineage, nor any of the other deceptive trappings.

 

The real transmission comes from the heart of the one who is so grateful for all of the beauty that has been added to their existence as a by product of practicing the spiritual techniques of India. In this heart  they feel that if they do not pay it forward they will cry inwardly and ache maybe even burst for their fellow earnest seekers who are struggling.

 

Authority? There is no higher Authority than the desire to pay it forward that only comes from extreme gratitude.

 

Nicely articulated. So to reveal what may not be a secret at all - In India, we are very selective about finding a Guru (and most people go about their lives without one). So yes, while it might be that there have been a 100 or even a 1000 charlatans who have fooled people in the West, there also have been genuine Masters like Swami Vivekananda who came and illuminated the West as well.

 

The real transmission essentially is already there in us. All of us. Our True Self. All we need is a way to clear the clutter, so to speak, so that the True Self can shine forth in all it's glory. But not everyone is qualified to help clear the clutter formally. And most of the people who claim to do so, actually are not doing anything at all. 

 

In the words of Ramana Maharishi - "You don't have to do anything for the world. Just fix yourself and the world will automatically take care of itself".


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#45 Pilgrim

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 07:48 AM

Yes Vivekananda is highly regarded by all, and was copied by those who followed him to these shores. Some of these copy cats have made words like Kriya very popular.

 

I agree with everything you have just replied above.

 

My point is the same as yours. Just fix yourself, but it is also good to share the tools so others may as well. A true high caliber Guru may be able to do more than just share the tools.


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#46 Cauvery

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 09:40 AM

The Guru Disciple relationship has been misunderstood and promoted by those who are hypocrites to the point where it has lost meaning. Not only has it lost meaning but it has become something that is viewed with grave suspicion.

 

Here in the U.S. the Guru Disciple relationship is little understood and those still of an hopeful mind view it as a Quasi Mystical / Religious Relationship as has been promoted here since around 1900 by books & publications of the traveling show men from India. 

 

Here in the U.S. we have been exploited, we have been lied to repeatedly, and once the Indian Guru collects his Dakshina he does not even so much as remember you until it is time for the next initiation, which is also tied to more Dakshina. They may not even remember you then.

 

To make matters worse some of these Indian hard liner personality types give you the business about the sacredness of this and that and come equipped with all kinds of personal mythology acting like the thin line of morality in the sand. Even within their own circles.

 

Later they propose to offer further initiations via Skype for huge amounts of money, saving you the trip to California, airfare and accommodations.

 

A couple I have communicated with have wildly radical bad tempers on top of it all.

 

How nice, wow what a great sacred relationship. Act like a complete shit head and expect to have your ass kissed!!!??? Really? I don't think so!

 

This is not only in the United States but World Wide.

 

Without becoming offensive by naming names, around 1900 the Traveling Gurus started showing up here in the U.S. one of the most effective who might as well have patented the process of lying to westerners in exchange for their hopes, aspirations and cash, even wrote a book and had it professionally edited to appeal to the audience.

 

You and I are on same page.  I couldn't agree more with you.  Some times I get seething anger with the traveling gurus that you are talking about.

 

But having spent almost half of my life in India and other half in US, I realize, that I learned these truths only after spending a better part of my life in US.  I can see why it would be so hard for some in India to understand what you had described above.  Reading some books that you mentioned as a young earnest seeker from India, they felt awesome, everything uttered believable.

 

In order to comprehend what you stated fully, I had to be at the receiving end.  Right here in US.  :mellow:

 

[Edited to add  --  As dwai pointed out there are exceptions, real gems.  Ramana Maharishi did not travel anywhere, the world traveled to him.]


Edited by Cauvery, 11 January 2017 - 10:30 AM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#47 dwai

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:00 AM

You and I are on same page.  I couldn't agree more with you.  Some times I get seething anger with the traveling gurus that you are talking about.

 

But having spent almost half of my life in India and other half in US, I realize that I learned these truths only after spending a better part of my life in US.  I can see why it would be so hard for some in India to understand what you had described above.  Reading some books that you mentioned as a young earnest seeker from India, they felt awesome, everything uttered believable.

 

In order to comprehend what you stated fully, I had to be at the receiving end.  Right here in US.  :mellow:

 

in my experience, more than the traveling gurus, it's their coterie of chelas who are the bigger problem. I took initiation in The Art of Living's Sudarshan Kriya at one point. The Kriya itself was quite good and the first teacher I had was a wonderful person. However, as I delved deeper into the organization there were several things I didn't like, wrt. the chelas who assumed positions of power around Sri Sri RaviShankar and essentially are gatekeepers. An ordinary person like me can't even imagine having 1x1 time with Sri Sri.

 

I suspect that is the case with other big-time Gurus like Sadguru Jaggi Vasudev or Amma (though my teacher visits Amma a lot). In terms of attainment, my teacher, who I consider to be a jeevanamukta personally attested to the spiritual levels of Satya Sai Baba, Sri Sri RaviShankar and Amma.

 

Of these, Satya Sai Baba is perhaps the most controversial, as there has been much malignment in mainstream media about him, especially in India. Yet, I feel the power of Satya Sai Baba even now...in my meditations and every stage of my life, via the auspices of my teacher - A Taiji and Daoist Master, who also happens to be a disciple of Satya Sai Baba.

 

Based on what I've learnt from my teacher, I can say that real Masters have pure love and joy emanating from their being. But he also warned me that often when a student goes near a master, the Master's radiance will start cleaning junk out of the student's system. During that time, the student can feel miserable. So it is a very delicate tightrope walk, in all...


Edited by dwai, 11 January 2017 - 10:03 AM.

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#48 Cauvery

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 10:34 AM

in my experience, more than the traveling gurus, it's their coterie of chelas who are the bigger problem. I took initiation in The Art of Living's Sudarshan Kriya at one point. The Kriya itself was quite good and the first teacher I had was a wonderful person. However, as I delved deeper into the organization there were several things I didn't like, wrt. the chelas who assumed positions of power around Sri Sri RaviShankar and essentially are gatekeepers. An ordinary person like me can't even imagine having 1x1 time with Sri Sri.

 

Please don't get me started on "Art of Living".

 

Rest of the content deleted in retrospect.  I think it is better to keep silence on certain topics.


Edited by Cauvery, 11 January 2017 - 12:32 PM.

Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).





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