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Humiliating insults against venerable traditions / gurus - Acceptable in AYP forums

traditions gurus ayp smear

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#17 Cauvery

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 03:12 PM

Thanks Brain. Your post struck a chord. And Thanks CT.

I see things differently now. I was vetting my frustrations, based on my past experience and reading some bits and pieces of information here in the forums from past, and posting things out of context. I see that my posts were giving wrong impression. I truly thought my post may be of some value to someone. Definitely not the way, I would expect some one to introduce themselves.

I got worked up unnecessarily. I see now, that it was unnecessary. I was used to seeing a certain pattern, I just jumped to the conclusion that I saw that pattern in Karen's response. Karen's point about what I was doing was valid. Moreover, I was not responding to her post. I was responding to the "perceived patterns" I had, or the ghosts of my past. That was clearly dumb. I still standby the fairness part, though realize, it is not relevant at this point at all.


I see that my frustrations are not helping any one and just doing damage to me, internally. It's officially over. So, moving right on. thanks for reading my rant and responding, apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings.

I don't know if I can delete this entire topic. Admins or other members, please chime in. Not because I didn't mean the things I said. I feel the crux of the post I made was valid. But, totally out of context, wrong place, wrong time & poor way to express what I wanted to convey.

Brain: Thanks for giving me the benefit of doubt. I wonder if I would have done the same if someone came out the way I did.

Edited by cauvery, 06 January 2017 - 04:03 PM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#18 Rishi Das

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:05 PM

I don't know if I can delete this entire topic. Admins or other members, please chime in. Not because I didn't mean the things I said. I feel the crux of the post I made was valid. But, totally out of context, wrong place, wrong time & poor way to express what I wanted to convey.

 

Wouldn't worry about it. We've all had our moments, whether here or elsewhere.

 

Welcome aboard. Look forward to reading more from you.


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“May what I do flow from me like a river, no forcing and no holding back, the way it is with children.”- Rainer Maria Rilke
 


#19 Kar3n

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:09 PM

:)

Great!

For the record, I am not an AYP practioner, nor have I ever been.

Kar3n
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Recognize mind has never once had a thought that wasn't your own choice already.
Mindfully choose compassionate thoughts that are a pleasure to experience and the urge to silence thought passes.
With no urges, the need to cling to some thought passes with it.
Unlimited love,
-Bud

#20 C T

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:15 PM

:)

Great!

For the record, I am not an APY practioner, nor have I ever been.

Kar3n
TBD Mod Team

APY.. TBD.... 

 

Gosh, you must be overjoyed with the outcome, Karen  :P


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Om svabhava shuddha sarva dharma svabhava shuddho 'ham!
Om shunyata jnana vajra svabhava atmako 'ham! 
Om ah hum hra phat!
Om muni muni mahamuni Shakyamuniye svaha! 
  
Appearances are mind, mind is emptiness, emptiness is spontaneous presence, spontaneous presence is self-liberation.
(9th Karmapa)
 

The objects perceived by sentient beings 

are like the appearance of illusions;

Sentient beings themselves are in the nature of illusion

they all arise through dependent origination. - Nagarjuna


#21 Apeiron&Peiron

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:16 PM

It's all good,

 

You can say whatever you want about APY, I don't have any experience with it.

 

Welcome to TBD bwt btw.


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"The art of progress is to preserve order amid change and to preserve change amid order"
 
-A.N. Whitehead

#22 Kar3n

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:21 PM

APY.. TBD....

Gosh, you must be overjoyed with the outcome, Karen :P


:lol:

It's that margarita and my new smart dumb phone.

<flags down waitress>
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Recognize mind has never once had a thought that wasn't your own choice already.
Mindfully choose compassionate thoughts that are a pleasure to experience and the urge to silence thought passes.
With no urges, the need to cling to some thought passes with it.
Unlimited love,
-Bud

#23 C T

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 04:25 PM

:lol:

It's that margarita and my new smart dumb phone.

<flags down waitress>

go easy on them devils brew  :D (just kiddin)


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Om svabhava shuddha sarva dharma svabhava shuddho 'ham!
Om shunyata jnana vajra svabhava atmako 'ham! 
Om ah hum hra phat!
Om muni muni mahamuni Shakyamuniye svaha! 
  
Appearances are mind, mind is emptiness, emptiness is spontaneous presence, spontaneous presence is self-liberation.
(9th Karmapa)
 

The objects perceived by sentient beings 

are like the appearance of illusions;

Sentient beings themselves are in the nature of illusion

they all arise through dependent origination. - Nagarjuna


#24 Pilgrim

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:20 AM

Guru's need extreme scrutiny and criticism, because many if not most are dodgy in some way!

All of them are human and flawed, I have met and learned from some of the ones listed, they were not that bad. They do deserve to be scrutinized but criticism?

No criticism is far too easy, Guru followers tend to be a bit in the vein of this post, either all in or people wth bruised feelings, and sometimes bruised bank accounts too.

The best thing anyone can do is realize this, remain objective, keep your wits about you, learn what you can and continue on your path. 'YOUR PATH"

Concerning Yogani and AYP, who cares? It is pretty obvious the techniques are just cobbled together and very altered from the original sources. It is also pretty obvious they are in the business of selling their point of view. They have a website dedicated to their own dogmatic ways and if you step outside of what they want to see on their website you run into moderation.

Again so what? "THEIR WEBSITE" Catholics go to Catholic Church. It is not so different.

My parents told me 'it's my way or the highway" I chose the highway. Seems like the O.P. did too.

Concerning Yogani. Who knows? The name might be, being used by many on the AYP website. I remember years ago AYP was allot different, it was something new, something fresh, it was scandalous anyone would publish techniques resembling what was learned from SRF, Transcendental Meditation, and a few others even though like with SRF they were incomplete and largly reimagined.

(Lol reimagined twice, snicker, heh, twice baked potatoe, re-fried beans, reconstituted milk , ack, ok will stop amusing myself now)

8 years ago or so it seemed like there was more open discussion as AYP was still trying to piece itself together. Back then I thought it was kind of refreshing to read WITHOUT ALL THE Gurudev said this or that hokem and a little informative but grew bored of watching people form up into popularity clicks.

It seems somewhere, something changed. Maybe Yogani or the Yoganis, decided on how they wanted to finally be and now the site is pretty dead accept for a few who answer questions with approved replies and police each other when the reply is not in line with the AYP bible. I have even seen posts that appear to be blatantly seeded, then one of the handful of members that are always present give the AYP Canonical Answer.

Again who cares? If it is not for you, then move on. This AYP thing was enabled by fortunate timing with the early days of the internet. The original momentum has played out, the shock factor is gone, the wow is gone, the freshness grown stale. The mystery of on going discovery has played out it has already been decided and locked down. Without these things their time will run out.

Without reading past the first page of this thread I have a question for the O.P.

Now that you are moving away from AYP Practices what do you intend to do now?

Edited by Pilgrim, 07 January 2017 - 07:25 AM.

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#25 Cauvery

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 07:51 AM

:)
Great!
For the record, I am not an AYP practioner, nor have I ever been.
Kar3n
TDB Mod Team

You pointed out very clearly on your first post here that you were not an AYP practitioner ever. I misunderstood and responded with justifications for my post. I understand why, you need to state it clearly once again that you are not AYP practitioner.

But, I am curious about one point. You said on the first post, you think "AYP has laid good foundations...". Would it be fair to make that statement, if you have never practiced the system? I can only assume you are very familiar with it, to say it has laid good foundations.

Looking at this calmly:
I agree that AYP has laid good foundation -- based on my own practice over years. I have never said anywhere or attacked AYP's core practices. I see some people have done that here in forums before. I even said AYP has value. I agree with many that pointed out here and in AYP forums, that AYP is a mix of TM & Kriya Yoga practices. I have done Kriya Yoga personally for years and I am familiar with TM. I have to agree with this view, that AYP is a mix of TM, Kriya yoga and some Tantric practices. Rebranded and presented with a different pitch. I think TM & Kriya are extremely valuable and effective practices. Therefore the culmination of the two branded as something else, should be effective due to the underlying practices. Does mixing different traditions/practices, will cause positive results or potentially negative? I don't know. The practices themselves seem positive to me overall, but some others have narrated terrible negative experiences.
I was not taking issue with AYP's core teaching. I was taking issue with the way, the AYP system conducts itself, that the system can't take minor criticisms of it's own and curtails such activities, thinks any thoughts or intelligent questions about their system are counter productive to progress. But, it is permissible to allow or talk about insults, bashing and humiliating other gurus and traditions; who are not afforded the opportunity to come and defend for themselves. It was clearly dumb on my part, to have voiced this concern in a post, that was perceived as, introduction of myself to the forum and it's administrators.

Edited by cauvery, 07 January 2017 - 08:26 AM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#26 thelerner

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 08:00 AM

We can't all find mystical masters.  And if we do, they'll probably have a fair amount of eccentricities.   Organizations like Healing Tao and AYP, for all the criticisms tossed at them, are probably good places to start, but maybe not great to stay with long term.  They have lessons to teach, some solid, some not, but they expose students to new paradigms; to be digested then to be moved on from.  Hopefully deeper.  


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#27 Apech

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 11:11 AM

#boredofayp


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"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#28 Kar3n

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Posted 07 January 2017 - 12:09 PM

You pointed out very clearly on your first post here that you were not an AYP practitioner ever. I misunderstood and responded with justifications for my post. I understand why, you need to state it clearly once again that you are not AYP practitioner.

But, I am curious about one point. You said on the first post, you think "AYP has laid good foundations...". Would it be fair to make that statement, if you have never practiced the system? I can only assume you are very familiar with it, to say it has laid good foundations.

 

It is a fair statement for me to make. Though I have never practiced it, I have first hand, intimate knowledge of the process and the transformations of lives and personal relationships of those who have. AYP gave them a starting point, laid a foundation for more...

 

Looking at this calmly:
I agree that AYP has laid good foundation -- based on my own practice over years. I have never said anywhere or attacked AYP's core practices. I see some people have done that here in forums before. I even said AYP has value. I agree with many that pointed out here and in AYP forums, that AYP is a mix of TM & Kriya Yoga practices. I have done Kriya Yoga personally for years and I am familiar with TM. I have to agree with this view, that AYP is a mix of TM, Kriya yoga and some Tantric practices. Rebranded and presented with a different pitch. I think TM & Kriya are extremely valuable and effective practices. Therefore the culmination of the two branded as something else, should be effective due to the underlying practices. Does mixing different traditions/practices, will cause positive results or potentially negative? I don't know. The practices themselves seem positive to me overall, but some others have narrated terrible negative experiences.

 

Spiritual seeking and learning should come with a warning label; all too many think it is all feel good. Those seriously seeking will have to take a long, hard look at themselves, and that's not easy or full of feel good if we are being honest with ourselves. Can AYP bring negative experiences, yes, but no more than any other without the proper guidance and support.

 

I was not taking issue with AYP's core teaching. I was taking issue with the way, the AYP system conducts itself, that the system can't take minor criticisms of it's own and curtails such activities, thinks any thoughts or intelligent questions about their system are counter productive to progress. But, it is permissible to allow or talk about insults, bashing and humiliating other gurus and traditions; who are not afforded the opportunity to come and defend for themselves. It was clearly dumb on my part, to have voiced this concern in a post, that was perceived as, introduction of myself to the forum and it's administrators.

 

We can hold grudges for our perceived injustices, or we can simply take note of what we want to be and do on our own journey. We should always start with ourselves before we start pointing the fingers at others, alas, we are human (I think :) ) and we tend to be our own, worst, enemy.  I get in my own way a lot. I just pick myself up, dust myself off and look forward to the next adventure.

 

Life is good, might as well love it.


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Recognize mind has never once had a thought that wasn't your own choice already.
Mindfully choose compassionate thoughts that are a pleasure to experience and the urge to silence thought passes.
With no urges, the need to cling to some thought passes with it.
Unlimited love,
-Bud

#29 Cauvery

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 06:38 AM

Guru's need extreme scrutiny and criticism, because many if not most are dodgy in some way!

 

Agree 100%.  This is the point of this whole post with one caveat.  Guru's including the one's that call themselves non-guru (but act like gurus, sound like gurus, have a large following of their own like any other gurus, get upset when some one criticizes like any other religious org., curtailing questions, aggressively promoting their teachings, all the while mocking other teachings, gurus and traditions ), all of these gurus, including the modern online gurus (non-gurus) need extreme scrutiny and criticism. 

 

This post is an extreme scrutiny and criticism of a system I followed -- just taking their teachings at face value.

 

This is what I requested seekers to do in the first few lines.  Question every thing, before they dive deep in, like the way I did (oops... correction, "like the way I forgot to question")


Edited by Cauvery, 10 January 2017 - 08:15 AM.

Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#30 Cauvery

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 06:49 AM

But, I am curious about one point. You said on the first post, you think "AYP has laid good foundations...". Would it be fair to make that statement, if you have never practiced the system? I can only assume you are very familiar with it, to say it has laid good foundations.

 

 

It is a fair statement for me to make. Though I have never practiced it, I have first hand, intimate knowledge of the process and the transformations of lives and personal relationships of those who have. AYP gave them a starting point, laid a foundation for more...

 

Clearly we have different opinions on this.  I would not say something has laid good foundations, especially when it is something like advanced yoga practices that comes with potential dangers / benefits of it's own -- unless I had direct experience or I practiced those teachings.  Some one that values my words might believe it entirely and go start practicing the system, just based on my statements, which in this case, I have to point out is second hand knowledge.   If you feel differently, that is just fine.  We both just do not agree on this point.  As they say, we can disagree and not be disagreeable :)

This led me to the confusion and I made assumptions that you might have practiced AYP or have strong knowledge on the subject of your own.  I have admitted my mistake on this particular assumption clearly.

Thanks for your explanation.  This does clear something for me.


Edited by cauvery, 08 January 2017 - 06:54 AM.

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Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham, Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer, Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu, Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.   

(From Nirvana shatakam by Adi Shankara - translation by Swami Vivekananda)

I am neither the mind, nor the intellect, nor the ego, nor the mind-stuff; I am neither the body, nor the changes of the body; I am neither the senses of hearing, taste, smell, or sight, Nor am I the ether, the earth, the fire, the air; I am Existence Absolute, Knowledge Absolute, Bliss Absolute - I am He, I am He. (Shivoham, Shivoham).


#31 Kar3n

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 07:12 AM

Kriya discussion split to new topic...

 

http://www.thedaobum...ic/43045-kriya/


  • Cauvery said thanks for this
Recognize mind has never once had a thought that wasn't your own choice already.
Mindfully choose compassionate thoughts that are a pleasure to experience and the urge to silence thought passes.
With no urges, the need to cling to some thought passes with it.
Unlimited love,
-Bud

#32 dwai

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Posted 10 January 2017 - 01:40 PM

I'd not heard of AYP (or perhaps had but not paid attention) before. I looked at their website and it seems dodgy...as is the guy Yogani. I'm not saying he is, but seems that way to me.

 

Especially if he is trying to insult the towering figures of spiritual systems. The "scandalous" things that they are suggesting about divine beings like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa is a well documented, systematic attack on primarily indian sources of spiritual knowledge, through the auspices of one Wendy Doniger and her coterie of students and sycophants (Jeffrey Kripal was the guy who first introduced the homosexual pedophilia allegation on RKP...), using dubious and debunked techniques of freudian psychoanalysis.

 

http://rajivmalhotra...nvading-sacred/

 

I have been personally involved in this book (I developed their first website) and have interacted with some of these authors and editors, whom I can vouch for in terms of both level of knowledge (expertise) as well as character (wonderful human beings). 

 

 

They are giving away a free download of the book as well -- http://rajivmalhotra...acred-Final.pdf

 

I don't understand the knee-jerk reaction most westerners have to the word "Guru"! If you don't want one, don't get one. Don't sit and denigrate someone else's Guru. Guru means teacher, guide, etc. In the Indian system, Guru is often considered the spiritual parent. Just like the dynamics between an adult westerner and his/her parent is different from that of an adult indian, similarly is the case with a Guru.

 

At the same time, not every teacher is your Guru. Calling someone a Guru is a mutually consented upon relationship...you have to accept the Guru as much as the Guru accepts you. 

 

Just a small rant...glad to explain further if anyone cares to understand what I mean...


Edited by dwai, 10 January 2017 - 01:43 PM.

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