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Comparisons of Advaita Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, & others


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#17 Jeff

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 10:52 PM

Jeff, It seems we are not reading the same text, or surely not understanding it in a similar way:
 
"Paurusha ajnana is that kind of ignorance where in one is unaware
of realizing one’s own nature in samadhi. This kind of ignorance
is removed by the grace of masters and by meditating upon one’s
own Self. And when this ignorance is removed, you find yourself
in the real knowledge of Shaivism, which is all being, all consciousness,
all bliss. This kind of knowledge is called paurusha jnana. When
you possess paurusha jnana, you realize your nature of Self perfectly.


I guess I don't really understand what you think we are understanding differently?

As the text says...
"
Paurusa jnana is predominant over bauddha jnana because when you possess only paurusa jnana, even then you are liberated in the real sense. In this case, however, liberation is attained only after leaving your body. When, however, at the same time, you attach bauddha jnana to paurusa jnana, which means that, on the one hand, you practice on your own Being and, on the other hand, you go into the philosophical thought of the monistic Saiva texts and elevate your intellectual being, then you become a jivanmukta, one who is liberated while living."

Paurasa is basically practical (heart) experience, while Bauddha is intellectual (mind) view. In KS you need both to be enlightened (while living). The heart and the mind become one. In ancient KS texts like the Triadic Heart of Siva, the word heart basically means heart-mind.

If one has practical knowledge, and may themselves become realized after they die, it does not mean they can (or know how to) teach others. But, those who have the correct intellectual view can lay a basis for a student, so that when they have their own practical Paurasa they may become a jivanmukta.
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#18 dwai

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 09:33 AM

I guess I don't really understand what you think we are understanding differently?

As the text says...
"
Paurusa jnana is predominant over bauddha jnana because when you possess only paurusa jnana, even then you are liberated in the real sense. In this case, however, liberation is attained only after leaving your body. When, however, at the same time, you attach bauddha jnana to paurusa jnana, which means that, on the one hand, you practice on your own Being and, on the other hand, you go into the philosophical thought of the monistic Saiva texts and elevate your intellectual being, then you become a jivanmukta, one who is liberated while living."

Paurasa is basically practical (heart) experience, while Bauddha is intellectual (mind) view. In KS you need both to be enlightened (while living). The heart and the mind become one. In ancient KS texts like the Triadic Heart of Siva, the word heart basically means heart-mind.

If one has practical knowledge, and may themselves become realized after they die, it does not mean they can (or know how to) teach others. But, those who have the correct intellectual view can lay a basis for a student, so that when they have their own practical Paurasa they may become a jivanmukta.

That is my understanding on this topic as well. However having only philosophical knowledge without a practical aspect is problematic as it might end up in the teacher leading the student on a convoluted path even though the practice is very simple. I think the presupposition is that the bauddha jnani also has a somewhat mature practice. It has to do with anumAna (intuitive inference) vs pratyaksha (direct experience, which the Paurusha jnani has).

Edited by dwai, 02 January 2017 - 09:34 AM.

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#19 Jeff

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 10:05 AM

That is my understanding on this topic as well. However having only philosophical knowledge without a practical aspect is problematic as it might end up in the teacher leading the student on a convoluted path even though the practice is very simple. I think the presupposition is that the bauddha jnani also has a somewhat mature practice. It has to do with anumAna (intuitive inference) vs pratyaksha (direct experience, which the Paurusha jnani has).


Agreed. Very difficult to have a very deep understanding without the direct experience. But basic stuff would seem to be ok to teach based on intellectual knowledge if that teacher had been taught by an experienced teacher.
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#20 MooNiNite

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Posted 02 January 2017 - 10:52 AM

The mammalian brain and the reptilian brain. If you can rest in the brain stem, you will be in silence. 


Edited by MooNiNite, 02 January 2017 - 10:53 AM.

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I am the sun so high above.

I am the sky rich with color.

I am the roots of the earth.


#21 Boy

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 02:55 PM

Extreme amounts of misinformation and impotent intellectualism in this thread. Sad to see.



#22 Jeff

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Posted 08 January 2017 - 05:25 PM

Extreme amounts of misinformation and impotent intellectualism in this thread. Sad to see.


Why not endeavor to make a rational counter argument or explain your position, rather than simply insult other members of the forum?
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#23 Boy

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 01:57 PM

The doctor and the swami are not members, I'm pretty sure. My position is that of traditional vedanta. Why won't you go to the sources?

 

(I'll read through the thread to see if I missed something. brb)

 

edit: not really.


Edited by Boy, 09 January 2017 - 02:07 PM.


#24 Jeff

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 02:08 PM

The doctor and the swami are not members, I'm pretty sure. My position is that of traditional vedanta. Why won't you go to the sources?

 

(I'll read through the thread to see if I missed something. brb)

 

 

Ok, thanks for following up.  They were 3bob's posts, so it may not be my place to respond, but the Swami is a pretty well known past teacher and authority on Kashmir Shivaism.

 

http://www.lakshmanjooacademy.org


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#25 Boy

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 02:14 PM

Yes, but he's got vedanta wrong ;)


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#26 Jeff

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 02:17 PM

Yes, but he's got vedanta wrong ;)

 

 

Fair enough...  That is more specific and useful.

 

How did he get it wrong in your opinion?


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#27 Boy

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Posted 09 January 2017 - 02:47 PM

I really would put opinion to the side. If you are interested in vedanta, you know where to look. Moksha is not ananda. That is incredibly misinformed, and when someone misunderstands vedanta to such a degree I would be wary of his conclusions on kashmir shaivism.


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