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The delusion of Lust

bhajagovindam adi shankaracharya advaita vedanta

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#17 neti neti

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Posted 26 December 2016 - 03:33 PM

"The universe is all names and forms, based on qualities and their differences, while I am beyond. The world is there because I am, but I am not the world."

Sarvam khalu idam brahma... Tat Tvam Asi.

"Pure, pure you are, without a body, unrelated to the mind, beyond the illusory world; why are you ashamed to acknowledge: "I am Self, the supreme Reality!"?" ~Avadhuta Gita


#18 3bob

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:49 AM

"The universe is all names and forms, based on qualities and their differences, while I am beyond. The world is there because I am, but I am not the world."

 

Agreed in the meaning that the transcendent also has an unbreakable connection to and emanation per Shakti.   

 

(like the saying of sparks from fire)


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#19 neti neti

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 02:06 PM

Agreed in the meaning that the transcendent also has an unbreakable connection to and emanation per Shakti.   

 

(like the saying of sparks from fire)

There are various "states" of turiya, and phases of samadhi. What you say is true in the "highest state" wherein one is literally Lord Siva realized. I've known spontaneous glimpses of this "state" ...  total free subjectivity(without subject or object) by way of sheer will. Indeed, as Siva, the universe appears as none other than manifestations of My Sakti power... but even then, they are not "me" because there is no "me" to self-identify with.

 

Most do not receive this grace from the (inner or outer) Guru, and so "lesser" paths are prescribed in the Siva Sutras, other than the direct and immediate which is "without support" (shambhavopaya).

 

 

I found Maharaj's commentary here to be noteworthy.

 

Excerpt from "I Am That" -- God is the All-doer, the Jnani a Non-doer

Questioner: Some Mahatmas (enlightened beings) maintain that the world is neither an accident nor a play of God, but the result and expression of a mighty plan of work aiming at awakening and developing consciousness throughout the universe. From lifelessness to life, from unconsciousness to consciousness, from dullness to bright intelligence, from misapprehension to clarity -- that is the direction in which the world moves ceaselessly and relentlessly. Of course, there are moments of rest and apparent darkness, when the universe seems to be dormant, but the rest comes to an end and the work on consciousness is resumed.

From our point of view the world is a dale of tears, a place to escape from, as soon as possible and by every possible means.

To enlightened beings the world is good and it serves a good purpose. They do not deny that the world is a mental structure and that ultimately all is one, but they see and say that the structure has meaning and serves a supremely desirable purpose.

What we call the will of God is not a capricious whim of a playful deity, but the expression of an absolute necessity to grow in love and wisdom and power, to actualize the infinite potentials of life and consciousness. Just as a gardener grows flowers from a tiny seed to glorious perfection, so does God in His own garden grow, among other beings, men to supermen, who know and love and work along with Him.
When God takes rest (pralaya), those whose growth was not completed, become unconscious for a time, while the perfect ones, who have gone beyond all forms and contents of consciousness, remain aware of the universal silence. When the time comes for the emergence of a new universe, the sleepers wake up and their work starts. The more advanced wake up first and prepare the ground for the less advanced -- who thus find forms and patterns of behaviour suitable for their further growth.
Thus runs the story. The difference with your teaching is this: you insist that the world is no good and should be shunned. They say that distaste for the world is a passing stage, necessary, yet temporary, and is soon replaced by an all-pervading love, and a steady will to work with God.

 

Nisargadatta: All you say is right for the outgoing (pravritti) path. For the path of return (nivritti) naughting oneself is necessary. My stand I take where nothing (paramakash) is; words do not reach there, nor thoughts. To the mind it is all darkness and silence. Then consciousness begins to stir and wakes up the mind (chidakash), which projects the world (mahadakash), built of memory and imagination. Once the world comes into being, all you say may be so. It is in the nature of the mind to imagine goals, to strive towards them, to seek out means and ways, to display vision, energy and courage. These are divine attributes and I do not deny them. But I take my stand where no difference exists, where things are not, nor the minds that create them. There I am at home. Whatever happens, does not affect me -- things act on things, that is all. Free from memory and expectation, I am fresh, innocent and wholehearted.


Edited by neti neti, 28 December 2016 - 02:11 PM.

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Sarvam khalu idam brahma... Tat Tvam Asi.

"Pure, pure you are, without a body, unrelated to the mind, beyond the illusory world; why are you ashamed to acknowledge: "I am Self, the supreme Reality!"?" ~Avadhuta Gita


#20 dwai

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:11 PM

There are various "states" of turiya, and phases of samadhi. What you say is true in the "highest state" wherein one is literally Lord Siva realized. I've known spontaneous glimpses of this "state" ...  total free subjectivity(without subject or object) by way of sheer will. Indeed, as Siva, the universe appears as none other than manifestations of My Sakti power... but even then, they are not "me" because there is no "me" to self-identify with.

 

Most do not receive this grace from the (inner or outer) Guru, and so "lesser" paths are prescribed in the Siva Sutras, other than the direct and immediate which is "without support" (shambhavopaya).

 

 

 

Nisargadatta: All you say is right for the outgoing (pravritti) path. For the path of return (nivritti) naughting oneself is necessary. My stand I take where nothing (paramakash) is; words do not reach there, nor thoughts. To the mind it is all darkness and silence. Then consciousness begins to stir and wakes up the mind (chidakash), which projects the world (mahadakash), built of memory and imagination. Once the world comes into being, all you say may be so. It is in the nature of the mind to imagine goals, to strive towards them, to seek out means and ways, to display vision, energy and courage. These are divine attributes and I do not deny them. But I take my stand where no difference exists, where things are not, nor the minds that create them. There I am at home. Whatever happens, does not affect me -- things act on things, that is all. Free from memory and expectation, I am fresh, innocent and wholehearted.

 

This is a very subtle nuance that the intellect finds hard to deal with, imho. As with all other aspects of jnana, when the seeker is ripe, it will make sense. Otherwise it will seem either laughable or as though the words of a mad-person!

 

However, ultimately, this jnana is the logical conclusion, although it itself is beyond logic and the intellect. We are so used to rolling in the fields of concepts and percepts that we cannot imagine existence without these. For some it is eventually clear (or even spontaneously for yet others), however, there is a strong desire for separation.

 

For instance, once I had a deep and profound understanding of how "That" is nothing but pure love and pure joy. Yet, in and by itself, the love or joy didn't mean a thing. I was able to enjoy the love and joy, at least even as a partially separated being. 

 

I was listening to music that was so divine with love and joy, I knew there was no other way that things could be. 

 

While the love and joy made me weep, the tears were both of love and joy, as well as of the aversion to the fact, that ultimately, there will not be the littlest of the little "i" to feel the love and joy as an experience. I realized then, why many devotees are unable to separate themselves from their "ishta devata"...yet these are still musings of the little "i"...I hope I was able to express myself somewhat clearly...

 

Sugar cannot taste it's own sweetness...its nature is sweetness. Only a being other than sugar can taste it's sweetness. Can we then fault most people for not wanting to merge completely with the sugar?


Edited by dwai, 28 December 2016 - 03:14 PM.

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#21 Rishi Das

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:48 PM

I realized then, why many devotees are unable to separate themselves from their "ishta devata"...

 

Would this not be where Grace comes into play?


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“May what I do flow from me like a river, no forcing and no holding back, the way it is with children.”- Rainer Maria Rilke
 


#22 dwai

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 03:56 PM

Would this not be where Grace comes into play?


Yes.
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#23 neti neti

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 05:20 PM

This is a very subtle nuance that the intellect finds hard to deal with, imho. As with all other aspects of jnana, when the seeker is ripe, it will make sense. Otherwise it will seem either laughable or as though the words of a mad-person!

 

Very subtle... one must be it to know it, because the mind as commonly conceived is virtually extinct at that "level" of realization. The losing of one's mind is craziness indeed, by all standards and definitions. :P

 

 

However, ultimately, this jnana is the logical conclusion, although it itself is beyond logic and the intellect. We are so used to rolling in the fields of concepts and percepts that we cannot imagine existence without these. For some it is eventually clear (or even spontaneously for yet others), however, there is a strong desire for separation.

 

For instance, once I had a deep and profound understanding of how "That" is nothing but pure love and pure joy. Yet, in and by itself, the love or joy didn't mean a thing. I was able to enjoy the love and joy, at least even as a partially separated being. 

 

I was listening to music that was so divine with love and joy, I knew there was no other way that things could be. 

 

While the love and joy made me weep, the tears were both of love and joy, as well as of the aversion to the fact, that ultimately, there will not be the littlest of the little "i" to feel the love and joy as an experience. I realized then, why many devotees are unable to separate themselves from their "ishta devata"...yet these are still musings of the little "i"...I hope I was able to express myself somewhat clearly...

 

Yes. I like to think these divine paradoxes are meant to boggle the mind. What seems to contradict can guide us into that kind of surrender necessary to face the unknown. Hence, renunciation is the prescription for what ails us.

 

As for your expression of the ineffable, we can of course at best only point to It upon reflection... Thanks for sharing dwai!

 

 

Sugar cannot taste it's own sweetness...its nature is sweetness. Only a being other than sugar can taste it's sweetness. Can we then fault most people for not wanting to merge completely with the sugar?

 

Well said! It seems that parting with such sweet sorrow is delusional!... alas, the unfoldment of desire. I too am often guilty of the sweet-tooth... who doesn't love ice cream?  :)

 

Forgive me if we've taken your thread here too far off-course, but I suppose all is in divine order.


Edited by neti neti, 28 December 2016 - 06:16 PM.

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Sarvam khalu idam brahma... Tat Tvam Asi.

"Pure, pure you are, without a body, unrelated to the mind, beyond the illusory world; why are you ashamed to acknowledge: "I am Self, the supreme Reality!"?" ~Avadhuta Gita


#24 3bob

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 07:32 PM

Atman is the eternal identity - it sees through the forms without fear from unbound formlessness...

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Edited by 3bob, 28 December 2016 - 07:34 PM.

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#25 Marblehead

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 05:07 AM

Is anyone here still being lustful?


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#26 Rishi Das

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 09:52 AM

Is anyone here still being lustful?

 

Yes. 


“May what I do flow from me like a river, no forcing and no holding back, the way it is with children.”- Rainer Maria Rilke
 


#27 Orion

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 11:41 AM

The proscriptions against lust seem more relevant to pre-awakening. In post-awakening you realize you've always been awake and that the levels are meaningless ego games. You realize there is no supreme being to try for, you are it and so is everything else. It is everything and it's all right here. You can't get anymore into it than you already are. You can be angry, happy, sad, screaming, fucking... it doesn't matter. The whole thing is already perfected.

 

The realization amalgamates mind, body, and spirit. Mind works in cooperation with it. So does the body.

 

So I say go ahead and be lustful if it's the inclination. Abstaining when it's not what you really want or obsessing when you'd rather be free of it are both attachments that are just going to cause suffering; but whether attached or not, you're already free and nothing is wrong. Nothing is right either. All of the hierarchies can sublimate into it nicely.


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#28 thelerner

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 01:00 PM

Is anyone here still being lustful?

Yes, and I feel a loss that I'm less lustful then I used to be. 

 

Though maybe lust has faded into appreciation due to maturity.

Or more likely, most lust was hormone driven or hormone sparked. 

The not so mysterious Way of the Penis. 

 

 

 

addon> That's in the here and now.  I spend time at an ashram being vegetarian, meditating, listening to dharma talks and I get mellow, androgynous and desireless.  


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#29 neti neti

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 12:56 AM

Is anyone here still being lustful?

No, I'm not. I see it for what it is, desire for illusion, a symptom of self-forgetting due to misidentification with the body-mind. Fool's gold in the guise of promised pleasures unfailingly ending in pain; and the vicious cycle continues.

The pure and unadulterated Self lies beyond such fancies, untainted, affected by neither lust nor aversion.

Of course, one is free to pursue what appears pleasing to the eye, but one would be deluded to consider what appears as amounting to anything more than mere appearances. That which is without essence, without substance, without Reality.

If by the experience of lustfulness, a Bhogi comes to realize the bitter nothingness at the end of indulging his senses, then a Bhogi he is indeed. Otherwise, he remains in bondage.

If by the experience of renunciation, a Yogi comes to realize the ever-satisfying purity of Self at the end of controlling his senses, then a Yogi he is indeed. Otherwise, he remains in bondage.

Edited by neti neti, 30 December 2016 - 02:11 AM.

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Sarvam khalu idam brahma... Tat Tvam Asi.

"Pure, pure you are, without a body, unrelated to the mind, beyond the illusory world; why are you ashamed to acknowledge: "I am Self, the supreme Reality!"?" ~Avadhuta Gita


#30 neti neti

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 01:04 AM

The realization amalgamates mind, body, and spirit. Mind works in cooperation with it. So does the body.


True realization supersedes mental constructs and abstractions such as the body. Self is beyond consciousness and all contained therein.

Edited by neti neti, 30 December 2016 - 01:04 AM.

Sarvam khalu idam brahma... Tat Tvam Asi.

"Pure, pure you are, without a body, unrelated to the mind, beyond the illusory world; why are you ashamed to acknowledge: "I am Self, the supreme Reality!"?" ~Avadhuta Gita


#31 Marblehead

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 03:42 AM

No, I'm not.

It's not often I offer a "Thank You" for a Buddhist oriented post.  But you did good.


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#32 dwai

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 07:27 AM

Thought I'd add some more context. Strangely just after posting my latest comment about understanding why one might choose to remain separated as an experiencer of the joy and bliss, I happened to be open a book on the Ishopanishad and lo and behold! The very same topic popped up.

The explanation is very simple and yet eludes the intellect (even for those who have spent significant time doing atma vichara). All experiences are really of the Self...so those objects of the sensory apparatii, that cause us pleasure - tastes, sounds, sights, touch and mind - are all in our own consciousness. These are just small fractions of the bliss that is inherent of the Self - satchidananda! This consciousness, though conditioned is still our own Self (atman). So when there is no separate experiencer, the infinite bliss of the satchidananda is all there is. So it is wrong of the individual (limited) self to shy away from losing its limited identity out of fear of losing the bliss. This is what is called being "penny wise and pound foolish"

Edited by dwai, 30 December 2016 - 07:27 AM.

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