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Vitamin supplements are bad for you and may even kill you


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#1 Jetsun

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 02:10 PM

http://www.bbc.com/f...-could-kill-you

 

Amazing article 

 

For example:

 

"In 1994, for example, one trial followed the lives of 29,133 Finish people in their 50s. All smoked, but only some were given beta-carotene supplements. Within this group, the incidence of lung cancer increased by 16%.
 
A similar result was found in postmenopausal women in the U.S. After 10 years of taking folic acid (a variety of B vitamin) every day their risk of breast cancer increased by 20% relative to those women who didn’t take the supplement." 

 

"A study published in 2007 from the US National Cancer Institute, for instance, found that men that took multivitamins were twice as likely to die from prostate cancer compared to those who didn’t. And in 2011, a similar study on 35,533 healthy men found that vitamin E and selenium supplementation increased prostate cancer by 17%."

 

 

:o


Edited by Jetsun, 11 December 2016 - 02:11 PM.


#2 Taomeow

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 03:09 PM

Anyone ever tried studying the studies?

 

If a study is of interest or relevance to me, I go to the original publication, and start with the part titled Financial Disclosure at the very end.  If it says something natural or traditional or alternative is bad for you and the party that paid for the study is a pharmaceutical company that makes a drug that treats the condition that is prevented by the natural or traditional or alternative substance, I ignore it. 

 

Next, if this test has been passed by the study and it was paid for by an independent party (whose independence I take the trouble to verify if the study is of interest or relevance to me), I study how it was actually conducted.  E.g., a study that "proved" the inefficiency and even harmful effects of large intravenous doses of  vitamin C for certain conditions for which it is used in orthomolecular medicine (pioneered by Linus Pauling of two Nobel prizes) was revealed in its technicalities as set up specifically to prove what it purportedly proved.  Vitamin C solution in Pauling's protocol was freshly prepared for each IV, since it rapidly degrades (within an hour) under the influence of light, oxygen and heat.  In the NIH or Mayo clinic study (don't remember which it was), however, the solution was prepared in advance for the whole duration of the study, something like a month's supply, and under these conditions provided the study subjects not with ascorbic acid but with products of its degradation,  specifically dehydroascorbic acid, and in the body, 2,3-diketogulonic acid, 3-deoxythreosone, xylosone, and threosone.  All of which are of course metabolically active in ways poorly understood, hardly ever studied, but having the in vivo effects either very different or even opposite of those of the original substance.  However, the study asserted it was the original substance they studied.  Only it wasn't.

 

Next, if the conditions to actually study what they say they are studying are observed, I look at the source of the substance and how closely it resembles the natural original.  E.g., the synthetic vitamin E, tocopheryl, is chemically similar to the natural vitamin E, tocopherol, in the test tube, but has a dramatically different (and harmful) effect in vivo.  If they say "vitamin E was shown to be bad," I want to know which one they tested, tocopherol (the real thing) or tocopheryl (the franken-E).

 

I don't stop even there if I am going to take a "study" seriously, but this gives you an idea of what I'm talking about.  Study the study.  If you believe it without studying it, you may be buying into someone's agenda rather than getting informed.  If I'm going to believe in something without studying it, it better be of divine origins, not human.   


Edited by Taomeow, 11 December 2016 - 03:12 PM.

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#3 Yueya

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 03:33 PM

I don't really want to buy into topic because I haven't read the article Jetsun references and don't intend to. Also diet discussions tend to become heated. My basic belief is that everyone must find what suits best their constitution, lifestyle, age etc. However, I personally steer clear of any concentrated dietary supplements simply because I can't see that they are needed if a person is reasonably healthy and follows a healthy lifestyle.  Also, intuitively I don't like the idea of flooding my body with excessive nutrients. With all food viewed as medicine, neither too much or too little is the rule. Both can cause harm. Our bodies haven't evolved to handle concentrated supplements. But as medicines to redress imbalances I can see they have their valid place.


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#4 gendao

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 04:18 PM

Next, if the conditions to actually study what they say they are studying are observed, I look at the source of the substance and how closely it resembles the natural original.  E.g., the synthetic vitamin E, tocopheryl, is chemically similar to the natural vitamin E, tocopherol, in the test tube, but has a dramatically different (and harmful) effect in vivo.  If they say "vitamin E was shown to be bad," I want to know which one they tested, tocopherol (the real thing) or tocopheryl (the franken-E).

Yes, all this study likely really proved is that the synthetic versions are not only ineffective, but actively HARMFUL.  Just for 1 example:

Yet if you read the ingredients of most multivitamins, the VAST majority contain (synthetic) FOLIC ACID, instead of (natural) FOLATE.  So, just imagine the cumulative effect of ALL these synthetic versions of the vitamins displacing the natural ones...

 

Just more Western industrialized medical BS, as usual... :rolleyes:


Edited by gendao, 11 December 2016 - 04:23 PM.

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#5 cheya

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 04:34 PM

Oh excellent! A supplements thread!  :)

 

A few weeks ago, Andrew Saul (of DoctorYourself.com) was a featured key note speaker at a major Vitamin C event in Wichita, Kansas. He spoke about Linus Pauling's vitamin C research and the many ignored uses of vitamin C for serious diseases. You got kids, please do watch it. Even if you don't. ^_^ The 20 minute video is freely available to view.

You can see it at this link:  Vitamin C Video 
 

On that same youtube page, you can also watch "That Vitamin Movie", an excellent documentary/movie that will educate you about the other side of the supplement story from what Jetson's article presents, much more along the lines of what TM has said above.

"The makers of That Vitamin Movie have managed to bring together for the very first time many of the world’s leading experts on vitamins and supplements." It's much longer, but totally worth watching if you are interested in optimal health, cautious about pharmaceuticals, and contemplating the use of supplements.


Edited by cheya, 11 December 2016 - 04:38 PM.

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#6 Vajra Fist

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Posted 11 December 2016 - 08:20 PM

Deleted

Edited by Vajra Fist, 11 December 2016 - 08:23 PM.


#7 sagebrush

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 05:53 AM

thinking of getting to the point and for me I do not care to go into a bunch of discussion about health and what not.

 

thinking of thanking for recommendation for vits. like D.

 

it seems to be helping.

 

I am sure optimal is getting nutrition through fresh and raw.... and organic...that is ideally.

 

not necessarily how I go about my day but I think it can't hurt to take somethings to aid in what maybe lacking

 

especially things like b vits and c

 

but who wants to really talk about that?

 

water and rest and fresh air:  Tao

 

trees air oxygen

 

daily kindness to override the niggling



#8 dust

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 12:47 PM

Language is of interest here.

 

A 'supplement' is something added that makes up for a deficiency. It completes/improves something that is otherwise incomplete/faulty.

 

If I eat a good amount of fruits and veg and nuts, I am generally not going to be deficient in most vitamins. (And the only thing animal products are good for is B12.)

 

Adding something that I do not need is not supplementation, it is... waste.

 

And of course it can be poisonous. It is dangerous to drink too much water, or inhale too much oxygen (and as the article points out, oxygen can be dangerous in other ways!).

 

What the article is talking about is not strictly supplementation, but people following Pauling's notion that more vitamins = better health. It's just so obviously a silly idea (in retrospect!). What I mean is, lots of people take 'supplements', but not to actually supplement a deficiency. The vast majority of people are not deficient in vitamin C, or E, or selenium, or likely any of the others mentioned in these 'fatal' studies.

 

So this doesn't mean that there isn't a place for supplements. A lot of evidence shows that there is widespread vitamin D deficiency among many populations, especially in nations with less sunshine, and that with our sedentary indoor lifestyles (lack of sun exposure) it's basically impossible to get enough vitamin D from diet alone (we'd have to consume ridiculous amounts of fish or eggs to the point that we wouldn't have any space left in the belly for those fruits and veg!). I certainly get less happy in the darker days of the year, always have, but I'm taking a vit D supplement now and it does appear to be helping.


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#9 Antares

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 02:16 PM

Why not to use for food natural products which are rich in natural vitamins and minerals and also have high biological value? I mean such products as quail eggs, spirulina, chrolella, honey, ambrosia, cedarwood oil, mushrooms: chaga, reishi, cordyceps  


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#10 Apeiron&Peiron

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 03:06 PM

Anyone ever tried studying the studies?

 

Yep:

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC1182327/


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#11 Taomeow

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 03:26 PM

 

Yup indeed. 

 

In most cases what we're are dealing with here is a bunch of mass hypnosis techniques. 

 

More than once have I seen the stage magician discreetly stuff a rabbit in his top hat and then demonstrate to the gaping audience that making special passes over the top hat and chanting "abracadabra" is what produced the rabbit.  The "result" of the study.  But most people are mesmerized by "peer" "reviewed" abracadabra.  I invested some time into finding out who these "peers" are and how exactly they go about "reviewing" those top hats.  The result?  Almost zero interest in "studies" except to determine which way the wind blows.  If they want it to blow in a certain direction, they will pull the rabbit out of the top hat, I have no reason to doubt that.  And what I learn as a result is what it is that they're trying to hypnotize me into believing.  This is useful information, of course.  But that's where its usefulness begins and ends. 


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#12 Brian

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 04:00 PM

Yup indeed.

In most cases what we're are dealing with here is a bunch of mass hypnosis techniques.

More than once have I seen the stage magician discreetly stuff a rabbit in his top hat and then demonstrate to the gaping audience that making special passes over the top hat and chanting "abracadabra" is what produced the rabbit. The "result" of the study. But most people are mesmerized by "peer" "reviewed" abracadabra. I invested some time into finding out who these "peers" are and how exactly they go about "reviewing" those top hats. The result? Almost zero interest in "studies" except to determine which way the wind blows. If they want it to blow in a certain direction, they will pull the rabbit out of the top hat, I have no reason to doubt that. And what I learn as a result is what it is that they're trying to hypnotize me into believing. This is useful information, of course. But that's where its usefulness begins and ends.

Speaking of rabbits, one of my all-time favorites (and not in a good way) was the one in which they eventually injected caramelized beef tallow into rabbits. Turns out rabbits don't handle that well...
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#13 futuredaze

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Posted 22 December 2016 - 12:42 PM

Too lazy to pull up studies now, but I remember the general view I came to on this subject was:

 

"It depends."

 

Certain vitamins, calcium I believe, are not good to take in supplemental form.  A person can also have too much fat soluble vitamins, which would make it bad.  So it is not the supplement in this case - so much as the dose.  However, I do remember reading supplemental calcium is no good.  Also, there are different variations of vitamins, e.g. Vitamin D2 vs. D3, which some are better than others (in this case, D3).

 

I take vitamins when I know I am not getting enough veggies and other whole foods.  I think it helps, but I do a lot of research on finding a good brand and mix of vitamins.  Normally, I try to get all my nutrition from good food, teas, spices/herbs, and natural supplements such as krill oil, spirulina, moringa, medicinal mushrooms, schizandra berries, etc.  However, I do travel often and it can be hard to prepare good food every day on the road.


Edited by futuredaze, 22 December 2016 - 12:45 PM.





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