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Xiao Yao Pai and other arts from China

Maoist destuction

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#1 flowing hands

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 10:20 AM

gone


Edited by flowing hands, 25 November 2016 - 08:25 AM.

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#2 Apech

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 10:35 AM

Thanks for the download.  I would be interested to know from Effilang why he felt it necessary to remove a dissenting voice from his threads.


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"The details of the practices should not be seen as technical tools for methodically building some sort of structure. It is not about building; instead, try to relate to the practices as the creation of a beautiful garden."   An Introduction to Ngöndro by Jetsün Khandro Rinpoche

 


#3 dawei

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Posted 15 November 2016 - 01:42 PM

As admin, I support Eff's use of Owner's Permission to keep his thread on topic as it was in a sub-forum area with a very narrow focus of systems.   

 

I'm not sure this thread really belongs here as a criticism of systems but will leave it for now.   Although I do think this is a much better way to make a dissenting point but let's be careful not to attack the person; not that it has happened yet but I hope we can maintain some level of respect in our dissent.  

 

As the attachment is not that long, I'd recommend just putting it as a post instead of a download.    I'm not sure if you want a further discussion on the attachment points but likely you'll need to drive that.

 

And was your concern just your own or are you saying the concern comes from another level ?


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#4 SeekerOfHealing

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Posted 16 November 2016 - 03:03 AM

I wonder if I may ask and pardon me if inappropriate but I would like to compare thru flowing hands perspective what is the difference between Xiao Yao methodology of cultivation and yours flowing hand tradition? as I read there is no qi to shen transformations etc. so it got me thinking which way person attain Dao with your flow dear hands?

#5 grassmountiansage

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Posted 16 November 2016 - 07:24 AM

I thought I would put this on so people can openly discuss some of the arts that have emerged from China including the Tai shang Men sect or Xiao Yao Pai, who according to their site did not emerge from China until the 1990's.

 

Effilang on this board has removed my posts when I have pointed out some discrepancies in what he is saying and practicing. I find this a little childish as it should be an open discussion. Unlike him, I welcome him to comment on this thread.

 

I have uploaded a brief but precise understanding about what happened in China Under Mao and how any spiritual or martial arts that now come out of China are really only half cooked. One can see why and it is truly a problem for any potential spiritual or martial arts student to weave a path through the mine field. 

 

Effilang's Shen Gong video is an example of a complete mixture of all manner of styles (not necessarily martial/spiritual) and knowledge and is more Shaolin than he would want to admit to. It is certainly not Daoist and as Tai Sung Lo Jun lived many hundreds of years before Buddhism entered China, I don't see how he can claim that what he was doing came from Tai Sung Lo Jun. Tai Sung Lo Jun had become a realised top Immortal, he did not need to learn the Shaolin 'One finger Zen Hand' that Effilang demonstrated, many hundreds of years later as a top Immortal. Any student of Tai Sung in the Heavens, would also not be using this hand form for they would not have been taught it by Tai Sung Lo Jun.

 

Tai Sung is a top Immortal he does not do things on a whim when someone asks him to do this; he is not a servant.

 

I have offered Effilang help but he refuses even to listen to what I have to say.

 

Can we really trust the arts that have emerged from China?

 

Yes the original authentic sects and masters either fled to hong kong taiwan indonesia america and so forth or they went silent.

 

Chairman Mao was the biggest hypocrite to have ever lived!



#6 flowing hands

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Posted 16 November 2016 - 09:50 AM

gone


Edited by flowing hands, 25 November 2016 - 08:27 AM.

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#7 dawei

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Posted 16 November 2016 - 06:40 PM

My part is of the medium as always between two worlds.

 

I get that we're going to disagree about some issues and we are not going to feel like we can support another's message that cuts across our path, etc...

 

But this really speaks volumes to me.   As a point of transparency, we first meet at another website where I started off somewhat critical of your position and rhetoric; I likely received some of your posts like some here do... but then I simply put aside any judgement to just see the ideas you shared... and then suddenly something different emerged:  I began to agree with you and then even sought you out to understand that in a deeper way.   So that others know, I memorized the tradition prayer in chinese.   I only tried the Fa Fu a few times but I found the prayer more important than some request to Li Erh.   This was one of likely 3 truly defining moments in my path to where I am now.   

 

The Celestial Masters founder claims he was spoken to by a deified Lao Zi.   Do you agree with that?


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#8 gatito

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 08:56 AM

As admin, I support Eff's use of Owner's Permission to keep his thread on topic as it was in a sub-forum area with a very narrow focus of systems.   
 
<snip>

 
The Owner's Permissions present an interesting conundrum.

From my perspective, on the one hand, if I still wanted to teach my Path here, I could easily so do.

On the other hand, when I come across something that I consider to be potentially dangerous (or at best an exercise in futility), it's still a bit difficult to issue a clear and unambiguous warning.

:)


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#9 Apech

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 09:36 AM

 
The Owner's Permissions present an interesting conundrum.

From my perspective, on the one hand, if I still wanted to teach my Path here, I could easily so do.

On the other hand, when I come across something that I consider to be potentially dangerous (or at best an exercise in futility), it's still a bit difficult to issue a clear and unambiguous warning.

:)

 

 

I think this is an important point.  Criticism (hopefully polite and respectful) and pointing out errors is how we all learn from each other.  While moderator action will usually split a thread for clarity it rarely removes posts and so everyone can still read what has been said.  But under owner's permissions the OP can just remove any queries or dissent.  It's not healthy.


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"The details of the practices should not be seen as technical tools for methodically building some sort of structure. It is not about building; instead, try to relate to the practices as the creation of a beautiful garden."   An Introduction to Ngöndro by Jetsün Khandro Rinpoche

 


#10 gatito

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 09:45 AM

I think this is an important point.  Criticism (hopefully polite and respectful) and pointing out errors is how we all learn from each other.  While moderator action will usually split a thread for clarity it rarely removes posts and so everyone can still read what has been said.  But under owner's permissions the OP can just remove any queries or dissent.  It's not healthy.

 

Unfortunately, the "criticism" here was never polite (let alone respectful).

 

Here's an exellent example of a dissenting voice (flowing hands) starting his own thread to voice respectful and polite criticism.

 

Job done.

 

:)


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#11 Apech

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 10:05 AM

Unfortunately, the "criticism" here was never polite (let alone respectful).

 

Here's an exellent example of a dissenting voice (flowing hands) starting his own thread to voice respectful and polite criticism.

 

Job done.

 

:)

 

Never?


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"The details of the practices should not be seen as technical tools for methodically building some sort of structure. It is not about building; instead, try to relate to the practices as the creation of a beautiful garden."   An Introduction to Ngöndro by Jetsün Khandro Rinpoche

 


#12 flowing hands

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 04:00 PM

gone.


Edited by flowing hands, 25 November 2016 - 08:27 AM.


#13 dawei

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 04:51 PM

Judging by what I know of Li Erh I very much doubt it. If we have studied li Erh's DDJ , we see a man who despises rule makers and religious cults, who prefers people to be simple and to follow the way.

 

But Way is any Way... path is 10,000 paths...   I don't see we can judge anyone's path anymore than we can judge the flow of water.

 

Both Roses and Weeds follow the Great Way.

 

I think your making a case for man made deviations...  but I see that as still along the 10,000 paths.



#14 Walker

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Posted 17 November 2016 - 11:09 PM

I think on a Daoist forum it is of great importance that any system that is extensively promoted has got to be tested as bonafied; we have discussed endless pages about Mo Pai and John Chang. Especially when these systems are being advertised to members as bonafied. I think it is a travesty if we do not criticise any issues about systems that come on here trying to attract more followers. Certainly Effilang has been tireless in his promotions and he should be credited for that.

 
I agree with what you say here, and I think this spirit of due diligence should be applied to all who promote ideas here, including such ideas as your brand of "There is no Tai Shang Lao Jun but the one Flowing Hands talks to, and Flowing Hands is his prophet" brand of millenarianism.
 
In that spirit of questioning, please allow me to venture that the unattributed block quote that you copied and pasted for us doesn't do diddly to prove the point you're trying to make. Why?
 
1. First of all, this article paints a picture in broad strokes of the repeated tragedies that struck mainland Chinese people post-1949. However, Effi tells us that Xiao Yao Pai became public in Indonesia in the 1970s, under the direction of a master who was in Indonesia since the 1930s. Their master would have avoided each and every one of the tragic historical events listed in the quote. That fact alone ought to put this discussion to rest. Grassmountainsage (from what I can tell himself no cheerleader for XYP), says:
 

Yes the original authentic sects and masters either fled to hong kong taiwan indonesia america and so forth or they went silent.

 

On top of that, there's the problem that there is a mountain of anecdotal evidence suggesting that some "real teachings" really did survive all the chaos of the 20th century in the PRC. Which brings us to point number...
 
2. Even if Xiao Yao Pai was being transmitted by a master in the People's Republic of China, the history painted for us by the quote (which was apparently written by somebody called Danny Xuan in a book about wing chun) you provided is far from authoritative. One can go see people in a martial arts forum debating the quote here. I tend to take the side that says the quote fails to account for everything that happened in the immense land mass that just so happens to contain the biggest population on earth. I know plenty of people who lived through that era, including cultivators and martial artists who have told me personally that they found ways to practice. Hu Yaozhen's daughter Hu Lijuan, for example, told me that when she was sent out in the countryside during the Cultural Revolution, she wandered off to practice her qigong in the woods, where she wasn't bothered. In Bill Porter's Path to Heaven we see the hermit who says he was dragged from his mountain by some Red Guards. After awhile he stole away in the night and went back to his hermitage, and the Red Guards never came after him again. I could keep making examples, but I there's no need. The quote's value is in reminding us to be skeptical; it can't possibly be used to definitively rule out any possibilities.
 
3. The quote you gave us is only talking about kung fu. Clearly it's not even accurate about kung fu. You're trying to say that what it says about kung fu holds true for everything traditional and Chinese. However, if the quote fails to describe the state of kung fu accurately... and we're talking about a religious cultivation movement instead of a martial art... and that religious lineage wasn't even in China during the period that the quote is talking about... then... well, then there is no then. The points are moot. 
 
 

I have offered Effilang help but he refuses even to listen to what I have to say.

 

Ah, now if that ain't the bluesy lamentation sung by forlorn prophets everywhere! I'm sorry to break it to ya, but part of the reason you're gonna encounter billions of pairs of deaf ears in this world is that prophets really are everywhere. Why, if I had a dime for every time I met a prophet, well, shucks, I'd at least have enough change to able to treat you to a Guiness for you to drown your sorrows in, chum. Worst thing is, you're not even close to being the only person out there who says they've spoken a word or two with Laozi. What's the likelihood of convincing people with quotes from kung fu books? Well, you see, there's this story about walking up Mt. Everest on your hands...

 

 

Can we really trust the arts that have emerged from China?

 

I reckon probably no more or less than we can trust the ones that have emerged from dudes in Britain...


Edited by Walker, 17 November 2016 - 11:10 PM.

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氣也者,虛而待物者也。唯道集虛,虛者,心齋也。


#15 flowing hands

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 10:53 AM

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Edited by flowing hands, 25 November 2016 - 08:28 AM.

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#16 flowing hands

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Posted 18 November 2016 - 11:17 AM

Hi walker thank you for your post

 

I don't drink and I don't lament so I won't be seeing you in the pub.

As you say we must be diligent about these things.

 

Actually as we are being diligent on this site I rarely say anything about the end world prophecy, I usually stick to the DDJ, because as you say there are so many (not that I am aware of them) lamenters of Millenarianism (had to google that one you must be a walking dictionary!)

 

As we were both not in China at the time (I presume you were not) it is very difficult given the amount of news that was released from the government to say what was accurate. Bill Porter was 'escorted' around a lot of China and only shook free at certain points. To discuss what actually happened we could be here all year, but we do know that spiritual and martial arts were severely suppressed and banned. Fa long Gong was banned for one example which is more modern.

 

I might have misread Xia Yao Pai site as it was not coming up full screen, but what I could gleen was that it was after the CR that the teacher decided to teach, but it did not verify whether he came from China or was in Indonesia before this. So I could be wrong about this. I am sure Effilang could put me right. Perhaps they could get their site so it can be read properly.

 

As we are diligent my old chum, my arts are from Malaysia where I lived for a while. I also lived in South Korea for a while.

 

So Dudes who heavily rely on dictionaries need to be more diligent themselves. :)

 

The answers are not always there.


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