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the conception of a baby


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#1 blue eyed snake

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 05:37 AM

I wonder,

 

for many years now there are children whose conception is in vitro instead of in vivo.

 

more technology is arriving, crispr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRISPR) and today I read that some Japanese ( I think) researchers have been able to create eggcels out of cells taken from the tail of a mouse. Technique needs to be refined of course, but you get the idea.

 

pretty soon humans will be able to create humans in ways that were not to be thought of only half a century ago. 

 

Now much debate about the ethical side of these developments is of course to be expected, but that's not what i aim for here. I think i will hide posts about the ethical side. 

 

I wonder what it means on the spiritual level,

for me, the making of a baby is a joining of bodies, energies and preferably spirits. but one way or another, a being not yet physical enters the action and starts to make a connection with father and mother. At that moment the twosome becomes a threesome, some people are aware of this.

 

then the new being sort of attaches itself to the energetic body of the mother to be, and i think that at the moment that the fetus is physically 'sound' this new body stats to enmesh itself with the small physical body. I think that these processes probably are not linear but sort of 'vague' a slow dipping into first the energetical body of the mother and later into the physical. Sort of slowly lowering vibrations, or something....

 

these are my thoughts on the conceptions of a baby.

 

Further, I know  that IVF children are more prone to developmental problems then the old fashioned produced baby.

 

But I wonder, what the hell happens to the new spirit when those first stages are in vitro? When it misses the threesome, the slowly dipping in the energy of the mum in those first days???

 

anybody ideas?


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#2 vonkrankenhaus

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 07:32 AM

Indeed, this is very bad qigong.

 

And the developmental problems you mention in the offsprings - the results.

 

Corporations are not actually trying to improve nature.

 

They are trying to subdue and dominate it.

 

Thus this way of generating new broken citizens from human beings, disguised and sold as "progress".

 

But from eye of heaven & earth & humanity, this is no "improvement" at all.

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus


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#3 dust

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 08:04 AM

I'm no longer sure what I think.

 

Used to be that I'd rage against humans altering wild/biological processes for our own interest or gain. Surely there are hidden dangers, like there have been with so many technologies in the past. But who's to say we can't improve upon some things?

 

I have an instinctive dislike for the idea of IVF, it seems so impersonal and, as you say, the twosome are not making a threesome -- the twosome are oddly separate, which seems wrong. I don't know about 'spirit', but certainly it seems preferable that the process is completed "as nature intended".

 

But then again, I have no problem with GMO foods, or various other 'unnatural' technology. Logically, if we can steer 'natural' processes, make them safer or more efficient without adverse side effects, doesn't it make more sense to do that?


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#4 vonkrankenhaus

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 04:40 PM

Re:

-----

"But who's to say we can't improve upon some things?"

-----

 

What have we improved upon of nature thus far?

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus


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#5 thelerner

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 06:20 PM

Re:

-----

"But who's to say we can't improve upon some things?"

-----

What have we improved upon of nature thus far?

-VonKrankenhaus

Fruits and veggies for one thing.   In some cases its amazingly dramatic.  We've been at it for 1,000's of years.  Not always better, but most of the time.. I think so.   Course that may not be what nature thinks. 

 

In vitro fertilization.. don't know.  Haven't seen information that kids are the worse for wear because of it.  I hope not.  Does spiritual sex lead to spiritual kids??   Don't know, but genetics and nurture might mean as much as a sutra during conception. 


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#6 blue eyed snake

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 03:52 AM

Indeed, this is very bad qigong.

 

And the developmental problems you mention in the offsprings - the results.

 

Corporations are not actually trying to improve nature.

 

They are trying to subdue and dominate it.

 

Thus this way of generating new broken citizens from human beings, disguised and sold as "progress".

 

But from eye of heaven & earth & humanity, this is no "improvement" at all.

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

 

Yes, I think it's no improvement too, ( but that's the ethics I did not want to be the core of this topic  :D )

 

regarding the developmental problems, i remember having read research which concluded something like: the risk for getting a developmental disorder is higher for an IVF-child then for a naturally conceived child. meaning something like, there is a certain percentage of children that has developmental disorders, this percentage is higher for children that are conceived by IVF. So, meaning that not all IVF children have developmental disorders.

 

But I remember it well, and I've always wondered why you never hear about this higher risk.

 

Furthermore i do not believe that these sort of interventions are thought out to hurt the human race, probably these researchers are really thinking there doing humankind a service, but that's  beside the question i ask here.

 

How do you think/feel that the enmeshing/incarnating of a new being going into the flesh is happening and following: what effect these kinds of interventions will have on that spirit?

 

would like to hear your ideas on that topic


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#7 blue eyed snake

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 04:31 AM

I'm no longer sure what I think.

 

grin, that seems to be the first step to wisdom  :P , emptying your cup of pre-existing ideas to make space for new ones

 

 

Used to be that I'd rage against humans altering wild/biological processes for our own interest or gain. Surely there are hidden dangers, like there have been with so many technologies in the past. But who's to say we can't improve upon some things?

 

 

 

yes..and no

 

for a long time humans have tried to make fruit/veggies and livestock of a quality better suited to their taste, meaning easier to harvest, more yield/ better crops, sweeter fruits, softer meats, veggies that are softer to chew and less bitter.

 

me thinks these processes are not bad as such but only up to a point.

 

we've made veggies with less bitter, well, bitter is needed very much for the body to function well. If we would eat more bitter then there would be less gallstones and we would have better indigestion. Humans need bitterness in their diet ( even when they do not care for the taste  :D )

 

we've made fruits more sweet, the human body does not do too well on too much sugars

 

I'm from Holland, our cows produce amazing amounts of milk, but the quality of that milk is low. There's been research to compare our ' normal cow-milk'  with the milk of cows that produce (far) less but have a more natural life, eat mainly grass and hay (no soy or maize) content is measurably better. Also these cows with a very high milk-yield suffer from many ailments, so are in fact unhealthy/sick cows.

 

so, regarding food, to me it seems that were already past the point that the improvements really are improvements. The food we eat nowadays has a far lower content of needed nutrients ( and energetic liveliness) then is healthy for our bodies.

 

Accidentally, the yield of milk in dutch cows is partly created by the selection of bulls. A very small group of bulls creates all calves via artificial insemination.... so I sort of return to the topic here  ;) 

 

 

I have an instinctive dislike for the idea of IVF, it seems so impersonal and, as you say, the twosome are not making a threesome -- the twosome are oddly separate, which seems wrong. I don't know about 'spirit', but certainly it seems preferable that the process is completed "as nature intended".

 

 

 

Yep, and besides that, I've a hunch that the low quality of typically western food is part of the cause of the high infertilty-rate. Those cows i wrote about, more or less standard get selenium added to their diet because they need that to become pregnant, and by now it's clear that a lot of humans have too low selenium-content in their bodies. Another thing that I've never heard anyone mentioning regarding human infertility, but every farmer knows it....

 

don't know much about spirit either, the way I've put it is just the way it feels to me. And being a woman i much prefer the natural way  :D

 

 

But then again, I have no problem with GMO foods, or various other 'unnatural' technology. Logically, if we can steer 'natural' processes, make them safer or more efficient without adverse side effects, doesn't it make more sense to do that?

 

 

 

Earlier I was sort of like that, but it has changed, the bad side effects are always popping up later. And about this cutting and pasting genes, the researchers themselves are honest in so far that they say they do not know what other effects the cutting of a certain part of the DNA will have. i deem that dangerous business.

 

seems to be about balance really, but imho we have over-tipped the scales and are now dangling


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#8 blue eyed snake

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 04:40 AM

Fruits and veggies for one thing.   In some cases its amazingly dramatic.  We've been at it for 1,000's of years.  Not always better, but most of the time.. I think so.   Course that may not be what nature thinks. 

 

In vitro fertilization.. don't know.  Haven't seen information that kids are the worse for wear because of it.  I hope not.  Does spiritual sex lead to spiritual kids??   Don't know, but genetics and nurture might mean as much as a sutra during conception. 

 

a sutra during conception... never tried it.....always been to busy with other things during sex...

 

but when you start form the idea that some energetic being is involved and slowly enmeshes itself with the physical realm, what happens during conception should have influence on the human to be.

and it's not only the conception in a petri-disc, they also freeze the embryo's

 

pretty cold start


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#9 dust

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 07:59 AM

Re:

-----

"But who's to say we can't improve upon some things?"

-----

 

What have we improved upon of nature thus far?

 

I was quite careful not to say that we have improved upon anything. I was only posing the question.

 

For one,

"Nature" is simply what is. What is, is. Some would say nature can be neither improved nor worsened.

 

For two,

From the human perspective, some would say humans have made numerous improvements through science, and through altering wild processes. Selective breeding, medicine, engineering, genetic engineering, etc.

For example: http://nationalpeanu...k-to-future.htm

"..early inhabitants of South America brought A. ipaensis into the area where A. duranensis was naturally growing, and the two species cross-pollinated to create peanuts."

The peanut is my favourite crop, and would not exist without human meddling. And in the last few years, peanuts have been made more water- and energy-efficient and produce a greater yield. Some would say this is an 'improvement'.

 

For three,

From the human perspective, some would say that regardless of any perceived 'improvements', any changes we've made have either been null (made no lasting positive impact) or have impaired the overall condition of the world, or will at some point in the future.


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#10 cold

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 10:46 AM

Humankind's behavior is either more or less profane or profound, dependent upon whether the act(s) were done selfishly or selflessly.    

 

personal intent is more or less determinate on where one lands

 

sex  = more or less profane

making love = more or less balanced one person giving to pleasure the another     

sharing love = more or less profound                        

 

Ethical or spiritual I don't know if they can be separated?


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#11 thelerner

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:07 PM

a sutra during conception... never tried it.....always been to busy with other things during sex...

I generally invoke some deity at some point,
sometime in the beginning, middle or end. 


Push hard to get better, become smarter, grow your devotion to the truth, fuel your commitment to beauty, refine your emotional intelligence, hone your dreams, negotiate with your shadow, cure your ignorance, shed your pettiness, heighten your drive to look for the best in people, and soften your heart. A creed from Pronoia

Where we have stopped dancing, singing, being enchanted by stories, or finding comfort in silence is where we have experience the loss of soul. Dancing, singing, storytelling, and silence are the four universal healing salves. ~ Gabrielle Roth

#12 Andrei

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Posted 26 October 2016 - 01:52 PM

I generally invoke some deity at some point,
sometime in the beginning, middle or end. 

 

Like... Oh My God! I'm cumming!

 

The most religious people are the ones who have sex  :D



#13 AussieTrees

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Posted 15 April 2017 - 10:04 PM

In vitro is the last hope of having child for some.
The child born of such interventions is an innocent survivor.
Love of the newborn is no less.
The enmeshing of life with newly formed embryo is no less if happening in vitro.
The creation of life does persist and is equally amazing in vitro or invivo.
Enmeshing of new life with embryo is equally unknowable with in vitro as it is with invivo.
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#14 silent thunder

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 06:51 AM

dao is utterly neutral

 

petry dish

or womb

 

life spark is life response and life is life until its death

dao cares not at all

dao nourishes all

 

sun and rain saturate both the murderer and the healer without distinction

 

it's my mind that gets all tied up in emotional judgement and shoulds and should nots

 

I'm too small to say if a child from a dish is as lovable as one from the dish of the mother

for really, the petry dish, how is it not from the mother (dao)?

 

matters of mind distinction

 

I'm far more potent when I release such things

and I seem to enjoy this potency

 

so let things manifest in whatever manner they do

and my response is my responsibility


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#15 silent thunder

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 06:56 AM

or the condensed version:

 

My response and judgement indicates my essential nature... not theirs.


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I don't believe everything I think.

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#16 blue eyed snake

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Posted 16 April 2017 - 08:04 AM

thanks for reviving this topic,

 

I wasn't looking for judgments, nor of parents to be or of their offspring.

 

Just intrigued by what it means for the newborn, energetically, spiritually to have this other way into being embodied


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