Time to Rotate

[zerostao]

thanks MS for your service and to the new mods and wilfred too. i think that catches me up 

i'd like to share why i feel 8 months is a good turn around time for the member to mod back to member experience.

first, the risk of burnout to the valued member/volunteer and trusted enuff by the community that they were allowed to the dungeon to keep this place going.(while the rest of us leisurely carry on)

i wasnt the first to sense the burnout risk. cheya, when myself and thelerner were being considered for mod duty, expressed the concern. and i have observed we do have former mods that for whatever reason stay away from our community. burnout seems a likely reason. 

and losing valued trusted members is felt by the community.

second, i like the idea of having more bums involved in the process and a rotation allows for that. i think the rotation idea came from trunk, or him and? either way good idea. the more of us that are involved makes the community stronger.

dawei already mentioned our diversity, so i will skip that

this is a very unique community here

long live the dao bums

[Michael Sternbach]

Looks like there is some need for clarification here. It may indeed have been an inaccuracy to say that I was dismissed due to getting involved in a conflict between Apech and Jeff.

 

As far as I'm concerned, all I did was listening to what Apech and several others - both pro and con - had to say on the Light Group activities as they may affect TDB. I did not follow any precast opinions but carefully drew my very own conclusions. Repeatedly, I (literally) moderated opinions expressed by others when I found them too harsh. It was certainly not me spreading any conspiration theory, rather I was thought of belonging to a conspiration undeservedly.

 

And yet this was the major reason for my resignment as I was told in no uncertain terms.

 

The eight months concept makes little sense to me. Some have been mods here for several years without any ill effects. But if it held true, what would the ideal service time of an admin be?

Edited August 23, 2016 by Michael Sternbach

[Jeff]

Looks like there is some need for clarification here. It may indeed have been an inaccuracy to say that I was dismissed due to getting involved in a conflict between Apech and Jeff.

 

As far as I'm concerned, all I did was listening to what Apech and several others - both pro and con - had to say on the Light Group activities as they may affect TDB. I did not follow any precast opinions but carefully drew my very own conclusions. Repeatedly, I (literally) moderated opinions expressed by others when I found them too harsh. It was certainly not me spreading any conspiration theory, rather I was thought of belonging to a conspiration undeservedly.

 

And yet this was the major reason for my resignment as I was told in no uncertain terms.

 

The eight months concept makes little sense to me. Some have been mods here for several years without any ill effects. But if it held true, what would the ideal service time of an admin be?

Ok, now I am really confused. This seems to be a lot of drama...

 

So you and Apech (and several others) spend time hanging out in the chatroom talking about how I am ruining the bums with all of the energy stuff that I am doing in the chatroom? When I am obviously not doing that, because I am not even in the chatroom because you guys are always there?

 

Or are you saying that Apech has been fighting with me, but somehow everyone forgot to tell me that I was in the middle of a fight?

 

Honestly, no need to respond to either of those questions (meant as a joke). I have always found you to be a fair, open minded and good moderator. I have also considered you to be a friend here at the bums and hope we can continue to be.

 

I hope we can all move beyond this stuff. And as I mentioned to Apech earlier today, I would be happy to self ban myself from the chatroom if you think it would help put an end to this drama/topic.

 

Best,

Jeff

[Geof Nanto]

I knew nothing of any of these undercurrents until I read this thread. To me, it's important to know of this stuff. Vulnerabilities are being revealed, and that's something I wholeheartedly support. I particularly thank Michael for his candor. Although my involvement in this discussion may well be a case of "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread,"  I've never been one to shy away from helping to crew the ship of fools......  

 

To my reading of the above posts, Michael has been unjustly treated. Whilst I have a great respect for Dawei and the awesome job he does in keeping this Dao Bums ship from floundering, in this case I think he may have allowed too much of his own emotional bias to dictate his course.  Whatever the case, the abruptness of his dismissal strikes me as unfair. And whether or not the 8 month limit is a good idea, to retrospectively invoke it against Michael comes across as far from ideal. 

 

(The ship of fools must ultimately be guided by the Dao, and before the Dao we are all foolish, prone to error.)

Edited August 23, 2016 by Yueya

[Marblehead]

(The ship of fools must ultimately be guided by the Dao,

 

 

[Brian]

Thank you most sincerely for your service as Moderator, Michael. You seemed to me to be an especially tempered and patient one and I think you did a superb job!

 

Speaking from personal experience, I know that you are not the first person to be summarily dismissed from the moderation team for having gotten too emotionally involved with an issue when that person expressed significant concern about administrative decisions or alignments. I suppose such things go with the role of the Administrator to some extent but it is my opinion that there has been a pattern of emotional executive decision followed by a face-saving public portayal of the sequence of events. This is not meant to impugn or denigrate Admin in any way as that is clearly a difficult and trying role -- and frankly one subject to greater stresses and challenges than Mod -- but an observation that we are all human and things are not always as they may appear. (And no, I don't want to go into more detail.)

[Daeluin]

I'd like to remind people that moderators assume the title of Concierge.

 

This word has a long history, and comes from the latin "conservus," which means "fellow slave".

 

Even though it is in a position of some authority, the role is about serving. Not presuming to direct things.

 

I was a little saddened when MS decided to announce wilfred's retirement all on his own, rather than waiting for our admin to do so. To me this very clearly showed that something had come between them.

 

Now I'm further saddened to see dawei's adminship called into question by MS. How is this not taking things personally?

 

When this recent concern first appeared, dawei opened up a discussion to past admin, and myself. He realized his closeness with the so-called-group being questioned could cause bias, and carefully reached out for external perspectives that he could trust, and made the decision against what his "group" was doing even though he did not feel convinced it was causing harm.

 

dawei may be closer to this issue than most, but even here he has taken extra steps to make decisions without bias. He is always working hard to be an unbiased voice that only moderates when it is absolutely necessary. If his actions are going to be called into question I imagine he will flow with whatever the community wants.

 

Brian, I am sad to see that you too still attach to this moderation issue. Even several months after you were no longer a mod, you continued posting triggering replies in heated threads, mostly just to project your already confirmed opinion to get a laugh from your supporters. Can you not see that this type of taking sides is what resulted in the last rotation?

 

I think dawei tries very hard to keep an unbiased team in play, and it is unfortunate that people do not seem able to recognize when their biases are active. At least dawei has taken clear steps regarding his own biases and even acted against them on behalf of the community. His requests to staff have been very spiritual and in accord with the dao. I'm sorry that this is not being seen.

 

Personally I think we are all making a big deal out of nothing, and people just need to let go and move on.

[Marblehead]

Well, yeah, every now and again it seems that Admin and the Mods need to be criticized.  It's part of the flow of TheTaoBums.  Yes, I know, it's TheDaoBums. 

 

My position is conflict free.  If I approve a new member they go do what they wanted to do by requesting membership.  If I disapprove they can't say anything against me.

 

Admin and the Mods actually have authority over me but it seems that after I got a system that everyone liked they have basically left me alone.

 

It is Sean's (the site owner) desire to have Admin and Moderation.  These are not paid services.  These are members who accept responsibility for keeping some form of order within the forums.  And sadly, Admin and Moderators are humans.  There are biases, prejudices, and egos involved.  Generally these never flare up.  But now and again something happens, not anything all that important IMO, and we need to speak out.

 

Admin and the Mods, whoever they might be at the time, won't be able to please everyone. 

 

Please don't let this topic digress down to the level of name calling and blame placing.  It serves no useful purpose.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Marblehead

[Brian]

<snip>

 

Brian, I am sad to see that you too still attach to this moderation issue. Even several months after you were no longer a mod, you continued posting triggering replies in heated threads, mostly just to project your already confirmed opinion to get a laugh from your supporters. Can you not see that this type of taking sides is what resulted in the last rotation?

 

<snip>

Is that honestly what you believe? That I hold a grudge against dawei and that I maliciously seek out opportunities to attack him in order to gratuitously "get a laugh" from my "supporters"?

 

dawei, is that your belief, too? Does this accurately reflect the tenor of your private conversations behind the scenes?

[ilumairen]

Soo many words...

[Marblehead]

Is that honestly what you believe? That I hold a grudge against dawei and that I maliciously seek out opportunities to attack him in order to gratuitously "get a laugh" from my "supporters"?

 

dawei, is that your belief, too? Does this accurately reflect the tenor of your private conversations behind the scenes?

I knew in my heart that you would be hurt by that.

 

Brian, please let it go.

 

I want you to hang around because I enjoy our little disagreements we get into now and again.

[Geof Nanto]

Thanks Daeliun for your perspective. Clearly there's much more going on here than I am aware of. However I do think it's important for people to air and discuss these issues which obviously have significant emotional content -  that's how we gain the insight necessary to be truly able to move on. For me personally, noting any strong emotional reaction is one of the most significant guiding signals I have. It can take me a significant period of time - even years - to fully gain insight into what the underlying issue is. And with real insight the adverse emotion falls away completely.

 

(And reading of these very human undercurrents makes me more comfortable with Dao Bums, not less.)

[Daeluin]

Is that honestly what you believe? That I hold a grudge against dawei and that I maliciously seek out opportunities to attack him in order to gratuitously "get a laugh" from my "supporters"?

 

I don't know if your intention was to get a laugh or not. Sorry. I'm just looking at the result. Your comments didn't add anything to those heated discussions except to keep the flames going. I respect you enough to imagine you understand what happens when two people are fighting around a circle of onlookers who egg them on.

 

That you reacted to my words so strongly conveys that you are emotionally attached. Why?

[Brian]

I don't know if your intention was to get a laugh or not. Sorry. I'm just looking at the result. Your comments didn't add anything to those heated discussions except to keep the flames going. I respect you enough to imagine you understand what happens when two people are fighting around a circle of onlookers who egg them on.

 

That you reacted to my words so strongly conveys that you are emotionally attached. Why?

Ah. Thanks!

[Nungali]

Thank you most sincerely for your service as Moderator, Michael. You seemed to me to be an especially tempered and patient one and I think you did a superb job!

 

Speaking from personal experience, I know that you are not the first person to be summarily dismissed from the moderation team for having gotten too emotionally involved with an issue when that person expressed significant concern about administrative decisions or alignments. I suppose such things go with the role of the Administrator to some extent but it is my opinion that there has been a pattern of emotional executive decision followed by a face-saving public portayal of the sequence of events.

 

 

Wait !  Is this Dao Bums or Confucian Bums ? 

 

 

This is not meant to impugn or denigrate Admin in any way as that is clearly a difficult and trying role -- and frankly one subject to greater stresses and challenges than Mod -- but an observation that we are all human and things are not always as they may appear. (And no, I don't want to go into more detail.)

 

 

At least they dont do the dreaded '  This thread closed for moderator review   '       (never to be actually reviewed, re opened, modified, censored, allowed ... anything 

 

... but its in the 'in box'      

 

 

 

[Nungali]

I suspect there is quiet a bit of  'Honne and Tateme' going on here .

 

And why shouldnt there be ? As pointed out, we are human.    

 

Personally I would rather people just blurt it out ... their real issues , admin officials and all .  But then again - I often dont get my personal preferences fulfilled .... whatever. 

[Tibetan_Ice]

..

Edited August 24, 2016 by Tibetan_Ice

[Michael Sternbach]

Michael,

 

Thanks for your hard work!

 

That you (and the other moderators) last so long is remarkable.

 

It bears repeating:

 

Thanks for your service!

 

Thank you cold for your warm words.

 

Yes, it can be hard work at certain times, but nevertheless done with joy as I loved the spirit of TDB from the moment I found this website and was pleased to be given the opportunity to help upholding it.

 

I was coping well and felt to be still in the process of fine tuning my skills.

 

Hence my bafflement and frustration when the decision came from the upper floor that it was now time for me to be "rotated." (A nice euphemism, BTW, implying a cycle of shift workers each returning after a while - which is in actuality rarely the case.)

 

All the more for the primary reason of not being sufficiently in accordance with a particular group - unlike the individuals replacing me.

 

However, I am glad that my resignment led to this necessary discussion.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Michael Sternbach

[Michael Sternbach]

I have been in chat once during the past three months and when I left all was chaos.

 

Must have been due to your Anarchistic nature...

[Michael Sternbach]

I think the controversy is fueled by conspiracy... the rumor went that, Chat had been taken over and next is the forum...

 

I heard this from 2-3 people, and each time I replied that is absurd... never going to happen.  But the idea seems to continue to today...

 

Well, when two moderators are being removed for their lack of compliance regarding a certain group, this does raise questions...

[Geof Nanto]

Yes Michael I think you have valid concerns. After reading Tibetan Ice's post I googled Living Unbound and found that as well as Jeff's involvement, Karen is a moderator there. I know nothing about this group or AYP, and haven't been reading the sex capades threads on Dao Bums or anything else directly related to these issues, but even so I don't like this close overlap with another group. I'd very much like to hear Dawei's explanation of what's going on behind the scenes with this Dao Bums forum I value and respect.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Yueya

[Michael Sternbach]

Ok, now I am really confused. This seems to be a lot of drama...

 

So you and Apech (and several others) spend time hanging out in the chatroom talking about how I am ruining the bums with all of the energy stuff that I am doing in the chatroom? When I am obviously not doing that, because I am not even in the chatroom because you guys are always there?

 

There are many topics being discussed in the chatroom all the time. Occassionally the "light group" is brought up, for one reason or another. As I stated previously, I was always interested in an objective perspective on this. It's not me dramatizing things...

 

Or are you saying that Apech has been fighting with me, but somehow everyone forgot to tell me that I was in the middle of a fight?

 

Honestly, no need to respond to either of those questions (meant as a joke). I have always found you to be a fair, open minded and good moderator. I have also considered you to be a friend here at the bums and hope we can continue to be.

 

Thanks. I certainly enjoyed it when, on some rather rare occassions, we were doing some astral experiments together. But as a mod, I could not ignore the negative ramifications of such for some individuals. It's nothing personal; I believe that your intentions are basically good. It's ironic that this issue led to my dismissal.

I hope we can all move beyond this stuff. And as I mentioned to Apech earlier today, I would be happy to self ban myself from the chatroom if you think it would help put an end to this drama/topic.

 

It's your call. However, thing being what they are, I don't see how this alone would resolve the issues currently under discussion.

 

Best,

Jeff

 

Best,

Michael

[Michael Sternbach]

Soo many words...

 

Yeah...

 

<sigh>

 

Certain things need to be talked about...

[Michael Sternbach]

---

 

Hi T_I,

 

I acknowledge and return your salutes.

 

While I am not always in agreement with all of your outlooks as encountered in a number of posts, this one does speak to several valid concerns.

 

 

 

 

original post removed by OP. Edited here.

[Kar3n]

...

 

So now you have a group, the "light group" which all support themselves, and although Kar3n may be impartial and possibly, potentially an adequate moderator, she is still married to Tom, of the LU group.

 

...

 

My personal life is just that, T_I, personal. But since you brought it up, yes, I am married to Tom/jonesboy. 

 

 

Yes Michael I think you have valid concerns. After reading Tibetan Ice's post I googled Living Unbound and found that as well as Jeff's involvement, Karen is a moderator there. I know nothing about this group or AYP, and haven't been reading the sex capades threads on Dao Bums or anything else directly related to these issues, but even so I don't like this close overlap with another group. I'd very much like to hear Dawei's explanation of what's going on behind the scenes with this Dao Bums forum I value and respect.

 

My affiliations with other sites, my husband, the friends I hold dear nor my chosen practice have nothing to do with my ability to moderate fairly and honestly on this or any other forum.