Avoidance or Cultivation?

Karl · August 16, 2016

Well that is the very crux of my question. If someone is torturing you, you can do all the inner cultivation you want, but maybe getting away from the torture is a good idea -- if you can. I'm not saying that crafting a life around avoidance of suffering is realistic... but sometimes it really is the outside world that's the problem.

I appreciate your approach as it's my base nature, to be more yin. But sometimes excessive yin is dangerous. It creates acceptance of circumstances that could be otherwise transformed.

My question isn't whether yielding or action are always appropriate, but how to distinguish when it is best to apply one or the other. The answer seems to be, to trust my own mind / intuition. At least from what people have said so far.

Your mind is your only choice. Don't get diverted from making use of the only tool you have to gain value and survive. So much the better if it can bring you happiness as the result of the values you hold and desire, but first you must obtain those values. Introspective bliss is 'soma' a state of willing sacrifice, of surrender, of going to oblivion with the smile of a happy idiot.

Orion · August 17, 2016

Your mind is your only choice. Don't get diverted from making use of the only tool you have to gain value and survive. So much the better if it can bring you happiness as the result of the values you hold and desire, but first you must obtain those values. Introspective bliss is 'soma' a state of willing sacrifice, of surrender, of going to oblivion with the smile of a happy idiot.

I wouldn't say I'm in bliss either way.

Karl · August 17, 2016

I wouldn't say I'm in bliss either way.

That's because you are alive.

z00se · August 18, 2016

I think it should be less a question of what 'should' you do, rather what will be fun. Whats the most fun thing you can afford without spending all your resources but without being a full tightarse. Sounds like you have thought about it lots, meditated lots, etc. Doing the same thing (meditating & thinking about it) over and over and expecting a different results is madness. Sounds like time for a change.

Take a chance, go into the unknown, whatever that may be. Camping might be alright but you're still going to come back to the same place, but it might be a big enough break for you to get confidence to make that change.

P.S. I've been camping plenty of times just in the forest not in a campsite. I've covered my car with bushes so it was hard to see, and camped out with piles of water and canned and dried food & fruit. I don't have a fire because fires can easily get out of control here in australia if it's not a proper fireplace (it has been international news plenty of times). But even in the winter i've just rugged up and been fine. Haven't even had a matress, just a blanket on the floor and a blanket on top and my woolen thermals and a couple of extra layers. A little gas stove makes warm drinks and hot food

Sometimes i've even come back into the city with my campsite made up, got more supplies and headed back out again, all my stuff was safe because nobody knew i was there

z00se · August 18, 2016

I think we create our own comfort (or dis-comfort) zones because of past conditioning. If we have a need to be tortured, it's because that's our comfort zone for some reason. To merely spring free of one situation will take us into another situation that produces the same comfort zone - although the circumstances may seem different, the faces may change, the locations may change. We are manifesting torture for some reason.

I think this is why wu-wei is the way to work out of it. To stop the dynamic while you're in the dynamic - not to run from it, because it will manifest again. Stop reacting. Ask ourselves 'what is it I'm afraid is going to happen if I don't do 'this'? (Whatever 'this' is). Walking on eggs? Stifling our tongue in some way? Tiptoe-ing around another so they don't get mad? I say this is the time for total honesty with self and others. Then, when the situation alleviates itself (either by changes in both personalities or by the relationship crumbling), we will have stopped the need in ourself to manifest the situation in the first place.

Just be totally honest, express your heart when it wants expression, express your mind, express your anger. Be absolutely true to yourself in every single interaction with that person. When you feel a wave of fear, or your stomach churning, these are your clues that this is a particular dynamic arising that you will need courage to get through with total honesty. Just do it. The relationship will crumble away, or it will change for the better. It takes more courage for total honesty with someone we're in close configuration with than anything. Don't be afraid of the 'Yes, but's....' or the 'what if's'. But do it here and now, or it will rear it's head some place else with someone else. Get rid of that puppy.

Yes i've been more happy and satisfied in unhappy circumstances, and i've been unhappy doing something i love. However I still think it's good to change things in life. Variety is the spice of life, and life is short. Sometimes it's not about being happy or unhappy, sometimes it's just about getting out of the rut and experiencing something new. Doesn't mean one can't cultivate in the new situation too. Inner cultivation is always good, but i'd rather die knowing i'd done 1000 things being happy and unhappy rather than having done one thing but experienced it in 1000 ways because i lived in wu wei.

Actually i'd rather having done 500 things 500 ways, that means i've had 25,000 experiences

z00se · August 18, 2016

I wouldn't say I'm in bliss either way.

How do you know? You 'think' you know. Thats your silly mind talking. You don't know until you try. Sounds like you've tried meditation, now try something else

Tomorrow is your unbirthday after all. Give yourself an unbirthday surprise and start on your adventure.

Happy unbirthday

Edited August 18, 2016 by z00se

Orion · August 20, 2016

I suppose suicide is always an option. Why suffer indefinitely? I'm holding out hope but, I would not want to go on like this for another 10 or even 5 years.

manitou · August 20, 2016

I suppose suicide is always an option. Why suffer indefinitely? I'm holding out hope but, I would not want to go on like this for another 10 or even 5 years.

I suppose it is. But wouldn't it be your luck that you'd just have to come back and master the same scenario? I'd work it out within in this lifetime first. Figure out why you're attracting it, change the need, get rid of it. You're replaying something from a long time ago, a conditioning. If you're going to trust your higher self, ask to see the need, understand it, see it. Then stop buying into the dynamic, let the dynamic fall away. It will, if you stop playing and reacting.

Aetherous · August 20, 2016

I suppose suicide is always an option. Why suffer indefinitely? I'm holding out hope but, I would not want to go on like this for another 10 or even 5 years.

What is your suffering like? If we look at the suffering objectively, is it really as bad as it's sounding here? Would any other person be saying the same thing?

manitou · August 21, 2016

Orion, I woke up with you fresh on my mind this morning, so I must have had a dream about your situation that I'm not remembering. But I did receive clarity.

Please realize that nobody is really "doing" anything to you. We all act out of self interest, including the person you think is torturing you. They are not torturing you because they are thinking of you first, as though their sole purpose in life is to torture you. They are acting out of a dynamic that they can't help, a dynamic of an old imprint of theirs. They are acting out of self interest from their past conditioning, and there is no other way they can be because of this.

We are not victims. We are volunteers for all these things that we think are happening to us in life. You know that rich inner life that you have? Please recognize that your counterpart has an equally rich inner life, and they are acting out of some old fear and behavior pattern. They are acting from their own needs.

The answer here, as horrible as it may seem, is to pray for them. I don't say this in a godly sense, other than you speaking to your own higher self. What you want to do is clear your heart of resentment, of separation, of fear. In some contorted way, you are seeing this pattern as a requirement for Love, which no doubt stems from your background. The answer is to Forgive It. Pray for the other person. Pray for the very best for them, and really mean it. Pray until you feel actual empathy for them, until tears run down your face. This is for two reasons: it will give you empathy into their situation, therefore releasing your need to remain in the situation; it will remove your victimhood and this tendency in your heart to be a victim and place yourself in situations where you are badly treated. And it will change your own heart to the tendency to love without conditions, to give without any expectation of anything in return.

The hardest person for us to love is ourselves. There is a child within you that is hurt badly - not from this particular situation, but from an old situation, and it is creating the illusion that there must be pain with love. This must be reversed, so that you can truly find an equal partner in the future. But right now you are in an unfortunate jigsaw-piece type of love, where you are both hooked into each other because of a particular symbiotic configuration. That's not love. That's a lesson, for both parties to work out so they can continue on to true loving capability. And until we learn to love ourselves first, we are unable to truly love another.

Such a Catch-22 life puts us in. But this is our condition, and this is truly your opportunity. It takes much courage to confront inner demons and come out the other side. But you can do it, and you must do it. But do it through much forgiveness - of the other person, of your parents (if that's the onset of the dynamic), and of yourself. Love is the answer. Always.

Orion · August 22, 2016

I would love to respond what you said more succinctly but the quote function on this forum is incomprehensible. I can't break up your quote into smaller portions, I tried for 15 minutes.

manitou · August 22, 2016

I don't understand it either, lol.

silent thunder · August 22, 2016

I've empathize with you Orion and can say that I have felt the way you are expressing that you feel now.

While I don't sense there are really any words that will in any way help with this feeling, there certainly weren't any 'words' that ever helped me in those times... but simply sitting next to a good friend and talking, not listening to a bunch of advice from them, but them listening to me, seemed to gather inertia that aided in the change of the state.

I will offer three things that always come back to me in times like that.

All emotional states spend themselves out and dissipate.

I never make long term, or 'permanent/suicidal decisions while in the temporary state of an emotion.

Absolutely everything is grist for the mill in spiritual process... cultivate, non-action, rejection, supplication, rebellion, reading, writing, sex, abstinence, there is nothing that is not useful on the path... fuck all the 'shoulds' and 'should nots' at this time and just be as authentic as you can... if that means sitting in bed all day, do it. If it means sitting in lotus for 9 hours, do it. if it means ordering a bunch of food and throwing it at the squirrels while balancing naked on a bar stool whistling old tv theme songs... you get my drift... I have love for you mate... you are not alone.

Orion · August 22, 2016

Orion, I woke up with you fresh on my mind this morning, so I must have had a dream about your situation that I'm not remembering. But I did receive clarity.

Please realize that nobody is really "doing" anything to you. We all act out of self interest, including the person you think is torturing you. They are not torturing you because they are thinking of you first, as though their sole purpose in life is to torture you. They are acting out of a dynamic that they can't help, a dynamic of an old imprint of theirs. They are acting out of self interest from their past conditioning, and there is no other way they can be because of this.

We are not victims. We are volunteers for all these things that we think are happening to us in life. You know that rich inner life that you have? Please recognize that your counterpart has an equally rich inner life, and they are acting out of some old fear and behavior pattern. They are acting from their own needs.

The answer here, as horrible as it may seem, is to pray for them. I don't say this in a godly sense, other than you speaking to your own higher self. What you want to do is clear your heart of resentment, of separation, of fear. In some contorted way, you are seeing this pattern as a requirement for Love, which no doubt stems from your background. The answer is to Forgive It. Pray for the other person. Pray for the very best for them, and really mean it. Pray until you feel actual empathy for them, until tears run down your face. This is for two reasons: it will give you empathy into their situation, therefore releasing your need to remain in the situation; it will remove your victimhood and this tendency in your heart to be a victim and place yourself in situations where you are badly treated. And it will change your own heart to the tendency to love without conditions, to give without any expectation of anything in return.

The hardest person for us to love is ourselves. There is a child within you that is hurt badly - not from this particular situation, but from an old situation, and it is creating the illusion that there must be pain with love. This must be reversed, so that you can truly find an equal partner in the future. But right now you are in an unfortunate jigsaw-piece type of love, where you are both hooked into each other because of a particular symbiotic configuration. That's not love. That's a lesson, for both parties to work out so they can continue on to true loving capability. And until we learn to love ourselves first, we are unable to truly love another.

Such a Catch-22 life puts us in. But this is our condition, and this is truly your opportunity. It takes much courage to confront inner demons and come out the other side. But you can do it, and you must do it. But do it through much forgiveness - of the other person, of your parents (if that's the onset of the dynamic), and of yourself. Love is the answer. Always.

Guess I'll have to reply the sloppy way.

I don't apologize for abusers, rapists, users, conmen and manipulators. I used to, but not anymore. I don't hate them or forgive them. I simply blank them out of my life. They are irrelevant. Trying to be a martyr or take the higher road is partially what got me into the mess I'm in. I refuse to invest energy in those kinds of people. There have been too many of them in my life. I understand their roots and I really don't care. There is no excuse for bad behavior. No matter what mommy and daddy did or didn't do, or what the world has done. Everyone has free will and adults should behave as adults.

In other words, boundaries. If a patient comes to see me, once they walk out the door I don't think about them anymore. The cord is cut. Same thing with relationships, or any given moment. I don't feel that people are out to get me -- not sure why you got that impression. I understand that how we perceive and treat others is a product of our internal world. At the same time, we can't just pretend things are all sunshine and lollipops, and that love conquers all. Sometimes you have to go to that hateful, angry place in yourself to know what it's about. There's no integration without doing that work. Yeah, we are love, foundationally... but that doesn't change independent arising and dissolving. It doesn't change circumstances that are out of our control. And you can't pretend you love something that you don't, that's control. In order to really embody love, you have to deal with your crap; and that might mean being not so loving for a while. It might mean embodying something quite grotesque for a while. It might mean you totally lose yourself for a while. It might even mean that you die in the course of your own trials.

I've met so many "peace and love" types over the years who were busy denying their own shadow. Spiritual people too... you know, the ones who are only into bliss, beauty, and feeling good. To them that's the Divine. Start talking with them about the nitty gritty of the world, or how their personalities aren't real, and they don't want to hear it. Just keep the pleasure endorphins flowing, or kundalini, or your LSD trip, whatever... the depth of denial and cognitive dissonance is astounding.

I agree that the inner child is key... going back to origins, to basics. I have been doing that. Again, I must emphasize that most of my life is spent doing inner cultivation. I'm not enlightened, but I am more realized than practically everyone I know. I'm always the wisdom guy, the healer, the one who speaks remarkable words from emptiness, the guiding principle. But I have plateaued in my own development and I can't see myself through this patch, and I have no gurus of my own, except the inner guru. But that leads me back to the conundrum of inner cultivation vs. taking some kind of action. How long do you sit on the lotus before you get of your ass and contribute something to the world, however transient?

My main issue holding me back is debilitating health. Everyone has a pet theory on why I'm sick. I've done thousands of hours of research and inner work on this issue. I am beginning to suspect that maybe my body is just fucked, and that's all there is to it. Our bodies are not impervious and beyond permanent harm. Maybe I am being shown a true limitation that I just have to live with. What haunts me about it is that I don't know how to conduct my purpose in life with this limitation, if it's forever. I can accept the limitation itself, but not the stagnation it has brought me.

But it's impossible to really convey that reality to someone who is able bodied. People who don't have disability will never truly understand.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Orion

bax44 · August 22, 2016

Orion- just so you know I also have a chronic health condition that while it is seeming to get better there are days where it limits me to such an extent that Ive felt like what the fuck is the point. I have come to some level of acceptance of it and in a way this has been healing as well along with the "inner work" that I do. I suppose Ive grown to look at it as some sort of challenge or lesson, instead of being victimized totally by it. Idk if this is helpful at all cuz I cant pretend to tell you "things will get better", but just to let you know that you aren't the only one going through that type of thing. I have/had so much anger about it that its literally put me in a state of inertia where I cant move because I cant believe its even happened. Now I just let it out- scream into a pillow, punch something.. anything to let the emotions just play themselves out. Ive also admittedly done some pretty stupid shit too as Ive let the "what the fuck does it matter anymore" voice have its way a lot, but ultimately this stuff has proven helpful for me to. try to take it easy man, I guess that's all I got

Orion · August 22, 2016

Orion- just so you know I also have a chronic health condition that while it is seeming to get better there are days where it limits me to such an extent that Ive felt like what the fuck is the point. I have come to some level of acceptance of it and in a way this has been healing as well along with the "inner work" that I do. I suppose Ive grown to look at it as some sort of challenge or lesson, instead of being victimized totally by it. Idk if this is helpful at all cuz I cant pretend to tell you "things will get better", but just to let you know that you aren't the only one going through that type of thing. I have/had so much anger about it that its literally put me in a state of inertia where I cant move because I cant believe its even happened. Now I just let it out- scream into a pillow, punch something.. anything to let the emotions just play themselves out. Ive also admittedly done some pretty stupid shit too as Ive let the "what the fuck does it matter anymore" voice have its way a lot, but ultimately this stuff has proven helpful for me to. try to take it easy man, I guess that's all I got

Thanks... I get where you're coming from. It's my daily reality. I have tried on that story, that this is a trial, a journey of some kind, a lesson. I've also done the reverse... god is punishing me, it's my karma, it's something I did in a past life or in this life. When I was a kid and fried a bug under a magnifying glass out of curiosity, I'm paying for it now. In other words, I somehow deserve this.

Life is not a journey. There is no meaning but what we apply to it. I've realized this more and more as I have tried to spin my wheels being stuck in one place. Everything is empty. I am just a part of the universe that suffers interminably, and that's really all there is to it. If it's punishment, time locked, or some kind of wisdom I'm supposed to decode, it has escaped me. I give up trying.

So from this place of complete surrender, I'm like the character in the video game. Do you wish to continue? Y/N

There are two reasons why I haven't killed myself. One is the fear that I'll have to come back and do this all over again. The fear has been programmed from Buddhist communities. What little insight I have into past lives is probably just a product of mind, along with the fear. The other reason is that it would completely devastate and destroy my family. And neither reasons involve really living for me, but I suppose they are reasons that have kept me here this long, so that's something. But they are reasons that are increasingly inadequate, and that's the wall I'm up against as I begin to see them as mere attachments.

Someone asked earlier, "Is your life really that bad?" The answer is yes. Yes it is. There's no "minding" my way out of this fact as I never "minded" my way into it. When you're painfully shitting blood 10-15 times a day and can only eat 4 things without more of the same, and you're disabled from doing the work you love and building a normal human life, indefinitely, it's hell. I would not wish this on my worst enemy.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Orion

sagebrush · August 22, 2016

what I want to KNOW is

like the mate of it stuff.

I want to know about the combination of ALL in this lifetime

directly what exact horrors that we will be continuing to uncover?

I have spent MY LIFE seeking out love.....whatever that means in my TERMS

not looking at you in the same SPHERE

but you are

when someone posts mate----

are you effected by mate?

do you see THIS in YOUR life on a physical level.

I do I have a child

Do you wish to continue?

do you have a choice?

because I have spent the multitude of being bitter beyond mercy toward myself

because of THIS situation.

do I think you know more-I would comfortable say yes

source?

my heart beats

and then there is something else that comes with it.

sagebrush · August 22, 2016

I can directly tell you that I can either be factual and both silly but I do not want to be foolish

sometimes my mind goes into hyperspace

it is like this---

its silly for comparative analysis?

I see the mate part is no coincidence

is THIS affecting you?

physically

so we cannot separate it out---

sagebrush · August 22, 2016

I do not know what you mean by a video game.

see-

surrender but yet---who is in charge?

trust-

but don't be scared

come here but go away

of what if I am doing something so terrible...

I come back and forth because I have questions

then I think back to many years of life

what am I bringing you

what are you bringing me

feeling a great deal of responsibility beyond the little love faces and the music