why fear enlightenment since it's inevitable?

[Bindi]

The ego has precisely as many tricks as you know of at its disposal to reinforce the illusion there is only ego. Defeating it's tricks can't be done with more tricks, because it already knows the trick if you are able to try it.

 

For most, they will not find a moment outside egos illusionary/delusionary realm until merciful death when the body/mind illusion collapses.

 

To collapse the illusion while still alive takes some incredible effort and bravery, more so than Orions fair description.

 

What remains is not nothing or no one, but a timeless everywhere, everything, everyone. A completeness of unfiltered raw experience unfathomably beautiful and unmistakable as one's foundational timeless being.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

Why is "incredible effort and bravery" needed suddenly? Isn't it just a simple choice to appreciate the moment for you?

[Bindi]

At least on a practical energy level it seems clear that engineering needs to be done - to push prana out into the 5 koshas or sheaths one by one (which include the mental and discernment levels), or from a medical Qi gong perspective, to shift Qi into the wei Qi fields which extend progressively further out from the physical body, achieved by filling the 3 dantians - when all of these sheaths or fields are completely and permanently full of energy, this may be seen as the end point in subtle energy terms, but to generate the prana or Qi out to the 5th kosha (the bliss sheath), or the third wei Qi field (which manifests from six feet out from the physical body to infinite space), requires some very specific engineering. Without a doubt to experience these energy fields as full is neither worthless, nor can I see how it would just happen by doing nothing.

[Jetsun]

There is only a certain amount an ego can do on its own, ultimately it won't destroy itself or undermine it's own existence. It can even use working on itself as a means of ensuring it's own survival. But there is a lot of help from the outside if one is open enough to it, for example if you go see someone like Mother Meera she can blast through some of your bindus or karmic knots in a matter of seconds, which could take you years to work through when working on yourself, but you have to humble yourself enough to kneel down in front of her to receive the blessing.

[C T]

Ramana seemed to think it was possible, I think it's possible, I wouldn't say it is easy though. FWIW I think that ego as we know it when fully perceived and disentangled and denatured is itself reformed into something beautiful and spiritual that then serves the higher Self. And I think then is the time to learn to sit still. 

you are correct - it can be reformed into something beautiful, which is the flip side of devotion to mundane delights and aversion to mundane unpleasantness - one who has reformed the ego will use that in devotional conduct towards the newborn 'divine' nature or buddha nature, whatever label one wants to use.. higher self or what not. 

 

In devotion, there will be a kind of wisdom and delight that follows whatever filters in through the senses and the mind. Not really that much difference from before, but now, instead of feeding the ego, the newly born higher nature gets nourished. After a time the ego simply dries up and falls away. 

 

Nothing has changed except now one begins to see ordinary things, motives, habits and other sense perceptions

with new eyes. 

 

 

 

 

There are 2 approaches that one can use to get to this point: Both will yield the same result.

Just that one is generally seen to be more time consuming and frustrating than the other:

 

The first approach is a focussed dedication towards self-analysis and watching out for ego's subtle workings 24/7, which can be quite energy-sapping in the best of times, and the second is guru yoga, or bhakti yoga if one follows the traditional Vedantic pov. 

Edited July 15, 2016 by C T

[Bud Jetsun]

Why is "incredible effort and bravery" needed suddenly? Isn't it just a simple choice to appreciate the moment for you?

It requires choosing to experience the death of all one had thought/believed.

 

No two paths are alike or they would be the same consciousness. I have only my own limited fleeting experience and crude typed symbols to attempt to express it in a relatable way.

 

Through a lifelong interest in exploring what is the nature of reality, I experimented with some very non-recreational doses of entheogens and realized I was a spiritual being having a human experience. This radically shifted my approach towards mindfulnes from being impossibly difficult to never having been more than a normally mercilessly persistent illusion.

 

Culture mindfulness however shows results.

 

Use mindfulness to consciously choose compassionate thoughts and actively living compassionate actions.

 

Life will become so pleasant to enjoy the wanting for energy to be somewhere or not somewhere will cease and this moment will become what you had been seeking.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

[Bindi]

It requires choosing to experience the death of all one had thought/believed.

 

No two paths are alike or they would be the same consciousness. I have only my own limited fleeting experience and crude typed symbols to attempt to express it in a relatable way.

 

Through a lifelong interest in exploring what is the nature of reality, I experimented with some very non-recreational doses of entheogens and realized I was a spiritual being having a human experience. This radically shifted my approach towards mindfulnes from being impossibly difficult to never having been more than a normally mercilessly persistent illusion.

 

Culture mindfulness however shows results.

 

Use mindfulness to consciously choose compassionate thoughts and actively living compassionate actions.

 

Life will become so pleasant to enjoy the wanting for energy to be somewhere or not somewhere will cease and this moment will become what you had been seeking.

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

To utterly enjoy the moment sounds fine, and is clearly satisfying to you, but it is not my aim. And neither high doses of drugs, nor your realisations from taking them, are actually relevant to me.

 

Let’s say I wanted in essence to be a highly effective medical Qigong practitioner. Simply enjoying the moment with my patients, and perhaps teaching them to embrace the pain and deterioration of their disease in that moment would not be appropriate. But accessing information relevant to their disease through highly cultivated subtle energy fields and bringing in the necessary energy through those fields to effect healing would be a much more appropriate activity for me to engage in. I know without any doubt which approach the patient would prefer.

[3bob]

something about many 'eastern' renunciates) : many do not live in a 'western' town or city as a householder (obviously) with a spouse and children to support, a job to work 60 hrs. a week, etc.. along with all the other related responsibilities of same!  They are a renunciate living a simple life in a simple place with other renunciates and have major support from other people to do so.   Thus us western householders who live light years away from being renunciates can not really adopt all of such teachings or live as they do since we have our householder dharma to fulfill...  (mentioned since we so often mention the teachings of renunciates)

Edited July 15, 2016 by 3bob

[Jim D.]

For me, there is something about enlightenment that shines a light, if you will, or opens a door to what it is that I haven't seen before. Another way to express my thought is, I am not to know that which has been hidden until I will have become ready to hear it, see it, and experience it Spiritually.

[dawei]

I engineer climbing the mountain, and maybe it will still be engineering when I get to the top and sit still there, deliberately learning how to not speak, to not move, to not look to the left or the right and to not respond. 

 

But right now, ego is my enemy, and I’m not taking my eyes off ego for a second.

 

The question I would put to the anti-engineers is how much hidden ego have they now invested in their self-assured spiritual superiority, which has to be one of ego's best disguises.

 

Is hidden ego conscious or subconscious?

[Orion]

It's not inevitable, it's not even a requirement, and you can't choose to get there because it's spontaneous.

 

There's nothing in here making anything happen. Whatever is doing you, arises and dissolves of its own accord. It is empty of process. The only reason to want to be enlightened is because ego wants to get somewhere, but there's nowhere to go.

 

Whether you fear enlightenment, covet it, get angry about not being it (even though you already are "it"), or whatever... you have no control over it. None, zippo.

 

I forget who said it... but if someone offers you a million dollars or enlightenment, you should take the million dollars. You don't get anything from enlightenment. People go through gut wrenching experiences and painful ego deaths in order to realize that there is nothing to realize, that nothing is wrong, that nothing inherently matters, that it's all Emptiness doing itself -- through you, through me, through the entire universe. It's all the same thing.

 

You are perfect just the way you are. Whether you get it or don't get it, is irrelevant to being it.

[Jim D.]

My spiritual mentor would tell me right now you really are O.K.  I would experience freedom from anxiety, at least for a moment.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Jim D.

[Bindi]

Is hidden ego conscious or subconscious?

 

I'd like to respond to your question in my ego thread so as not to disrupt 3Bob's enlightenment 

[Bindi]

It's not inevitable, it's not even a requirement, and you can't choose to get there because it's spontaneous.

 

There's nothing in here making anything happen. Whatever is doing you, arises and dissolves of its own accord. It is empty of process. The only reason to want to be enlightened is because ego wants to get somewhere, but there's nowhere to go.

 

Whether you fear enlightenment, covet it, get angry about not being it (even though you already are "it"), or whatever... you have no control over it. None, zippo.

 

I forget who said it... but if someone offers you a million dollars or enlightenment, you should take the million dollars. You don't get anything from enlightenment. People go through gut wrenching experiences and painful ego deaths in order to realize that there is nothing to realize, that nothing is wrong, that nothing inherently matters, that it's all Emptiness doing itself -- through you, through me, through the entire universe. It's all the same thing.

 

You are perfect just the way you are. Whether you get it or don't get it, is irrelevant to being it.

 

Seems a bit nihilistic, I'd definitely take enlightenment and put your theory to the test  

[Orion]

Seems a bit nihilistic, I'd definitely take enlightenment and put your theory to the test

 

I never said that nothing exists. I said it's empty.

 

And you're already enlightened. How does it feel?

[Jim D.]

I do not believe that enlightenment is inevitable because it is a choice. It can be fearful for a person because when they allow enlightenment to happen they now become responsible and accountable for their behaviors there in.

 

But a person living in Denial cannot become enlightened about what they are denying until they are ready. Sometimes techniques such as Motivational Interview can be useful in enlightening a person about a particular problem e.g. alcohol abuse, gambling abuse, sex addiction, co-dependency, etc.

[Bindi]

I never said that nothing exists. I said it's empty.

 

And you're already enlightened. How does it feel?

Like annoyingly smug neo-awakening actually.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Bindi

[Karl]

Enlightenment isn't inevitable. For many it may not even be a potential, for those who are capable very few will ever realise that potential.

[Marblehead]

I never said that nothing exists. I said it's empty.

 

And you're already enlightened. How does it feel?

Yes, empty as in without permanent existence.

 

(It's really hard for me to talk with a Buddhist about emptiness without including the phrase "of permanent existence".)

[Jim D.]

A cup is shaped from emptiness.

 

I will have permanent existence when I am cremated and fed to the tree I requested to be placed under.

 

I will cease to be because how it is that identifies me will cease to be. Those that view me in the coffin will remember their perception of me. My good friends will have been gone as well. But my wife who is 22 yrs. my junior will remember my heart and mind.

 

When I am sick as I am now, I am reminded of how much depends on being well.

 

This is enlightenment for me.

 

The fear of death visits me more often now. The utter reaization that I will cease to be after being here for what seems to be forever is unfathomable.

 

This is enlightenment for me.

 

Looking back at the 1800's and realizing that each person then is no longer now is surrealistic. I talk myself out of it by replacing the thought with ,"but you have 20 years left."

 

This could be denial and enlightenment for me.

[Marblehead]

What's that saying?  Don't count you chickens before the eggs hatch.

 

I'm shooting for immortality.  So far I'm doing pretty good.

[Jim D.]

I usually look at the egg in a strong light to see if there is an embryo inside. If there is I see "Space Odyssey 2001." If not, that yolk is going in my beer followed by pepper on the foam!!!!