Is Dzogchen about cultivation? Or should the teachings just not exist.

MooNiNite · June 4, 2016

I dont understand how people can write that Dzogchen is not about perfecting. But yet Dzogchen can have all of these rainbow body achievements and developments that their practitioners strive to achieve? Dzogchen is based on Padmasambhava who attained rainbow body and apparently shrunk.

So if everyone wants to achieve what he achieved, but yet there is no achievement... so then they are all already great masters and the practice shouldnt exist? Is Dzogchen self defeating?

"Dzogchen is widely translated as “Great Perfection”, but this may imply a perfection that we strive to attain, and this is not the meaning of Dzogchen. Dzogchen is explained as Ground, Path and Fruition, and from the point of view of the Ground, it is the already self-perfected state of our primordial nature, which needs no ‘perfecting’, for it has always been perfect from the very beginning, just like the sky. It is uncreated, yet spontaneously accomplished."

C T · June 4, 2016

Dzogchen is not based on Padmasambhava, is it?

MooNiNite · June 5, 2016

Ah you're right. They were brought to Tibet by Padmasambhava. I always thought it originated there... The Indians tend to claim everything...

"According to the Nyingma tradition,^[8] the primordial Buddha Samantabhadra taught Dzogchen to the Buddha Vajrasattva, who transmitted it to the first human lineage holder, the Indian Garab Dorje (fl. 55 CE).^[3]^[8] According to tradition, the Dzogchen teachings were brought to Tibet by Padmasambhava in the late 8th and early 9th centuries. He was aided by two Indian masters, Vimalamitra and Vairocana.^[9] According to the Nyingma tradition, they transmitted the Dzogchen teachings in three distinct series, namely the Mind Series (sem-de), Space series (long-de), and Secret Instruction Series (men-ngak-de).^[8] According to tradition, these teachings were concealed shortly afterward, during the 9th century, when the Tibetan empire disintegrated.^[9] From the 10th century forward, innovations in the Nyingma tradition were largely introduced historically as revelations of these concealed scriptures, known as terma.^[9]

RigdzinTrinley · June 5, 2016

Ok this is my babble based on what you wrote, take it or leave it

Dzogchen teachings exist from the point of view of our mind, our dualistic mental habits. As long as we have dualistic vision there will be the 9 Yanas with Ati-Yoga as the apex Yana (in this specific enumeration of Yanas, for a deeper discussion of this system you can read or receive teachings on "beacon of certainty" "the treasury of precious qualites" or "the great chariot" and other texts, that explain the 9yana system and also contrasting them with the teachings of the New translation schools)

Also...

that somebody attains a rainbowbody, shrinks or that there are signs such as rainbows in a blue sky when the master is dying or being cremated etc. All this happens from the point of view of our dualistic mind

it is for the benefit of disciples - compassionate activity

the teachings, wonderous signs, prophetic dreams, transmissions, empowerments, the termas, the kama etc. etc.

is our dualistic vision - and again as long as we have this dualistic vision these things will appear... its pure compassionate activity of the buddhas and bodhisattvas for sentient beings

..................................

no is there a base, path and fruition in dzogchen? or even tantra?

does it make sense to talk about attainment within the dzogchen teachings? or being liberated?

the short and boring answer from my POV (that hopefully accords a little with the teachings of sutra,tantra,dzogchen)

I write you a list:

during meditative equipoise on the view of Treckchö/Great Madhyamika (the view of the basis) there is no base, path and fruition - during post meditation we can speak about "illusion like" base,path and fruition

during ascertaining the view (of the basis) there is nothing established that could be called Base,Path, Fruition - while introducing disciples to the teachings in a gradual manner (while teaching or writing a book) there is the conventional appearance of a Basis, Path and Fruition as sounds, sentences, paragraphs etc.

as Dzogchen is concerned with suchness, then there is no seperation betwenn base,path and fruition from the side of the great perfection of reality - it introduces the disciples to how their true nature abides forever free of all dualistic extremes such as Samsara and Nirvana. Where samsara is to abandoned and nirvana attained through following a certain path - this is a teaching common to the sutras as well -Dzogchen utilizes this insight in a much more skillful way.

Yet I dare say from the disciples side there is a progression (not of gaining something new, but of removing conceptual stains - neurotic thought patterns, defiled emotions etc and all the qualities that come from this removal of stains - the spontaniously present qualities of your true nature manifest more and more)

yet again there is no increase or decrease of qualities or defilements from the Side of the great perfection (the suchness of reality)

there is no nirvana to be gained by abandoning samsara, nirvana is merely the exhaustion of error - this is a sutra level teaching but is true as well for the dzogchen teachings

so to understand these teachings correctly without having 1000 conceptual knots in your mind, there are roughly two ways: practice hard with pure faith in the guru or study a lot of sutra, tantra, dzogchen (of course mixed with practice) under the guidance of an authentic master

there are superficially very simple teachings of dzogchen, that are freely available (they are about establishing the view of the basis), yet I just let you know if you go into greater detail and study more esoteric dzogchen texts - I would just say it is impossible to understand Dzogchen without understanindg Sutra teachings to a certain extend, and teachings on Maha and Anu-Yoga + the practice of all these levels of teachings. The first time I received teachings on the subtleties of Dzogchen, was way above my head - nothing like teachings given during direct introduction or how to meditate etc.

its all still way above my head actually, when people say understanding madhyamika is difficult and dzogchen is so straight foreward and easy to understand I usually remain silent - because the teachings of dzogchena re much harder to understand then madhyamika, much much more difficult

sure when the master says "now rest in the nature of mind" then through the blessing of his or her enlightened mind the students have all sorts of expeirences, but what that line actually means form the Dzogchen point of view is very very difficult to grasp, intellectually or as direct experience.

so even very hard to understand intellectually (of course finally impossible to understand intellectually, I just mean the way these teachings are presented is not soooooooo easy and straight foreward like in 99% of modern english publicatioins or things you find in the web - deeeeeep stuff brother, deeeeeeeep deeeeeeeeeeep stuff)

EDIT: sorry for all the typos, I have no time to fix this, just see it as the self appearance of primordial wisdom (jnana)

Edited June 5, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

steve · June 6, 2016

I dont understand how people can write that Dzogchen is not about perfecting. But yet Dzogchen can have all of these rainbow body achievements and developments that their practitioners strive to achieve? Dzogchen is based on Padmasambhava who attained rainbow body and apparently shrunk.

Dzogchen is a funny thing, full of contradictions and paradox.

The perfecting part occurs before we reach the dzogchen teachings - it is a part of the personal work we do as we embrace the preliminary practices, the sutric practices, and the tantric practices. If we are fortunate enough to encounter and realize the dzogchen teachings, we see the world in a way in which there is no need to change anything. This is why all the dzogchen teachings basically say the same thing - leave everything alone, just let things be as they are. There are some other teachings depending on which lineage you follow - for example, some emphasize teachings that show us how to develop powerful visions and challenge us to remain in the nature of mind (the dzogchen view) in the presence of such visions.

Dzogchenpas don't go chasing after rainbows like some of the folks you bump into online. Most (?all) of them, however, have taken bodhisattva vows and that type of enlightened activity becomes a spontaneous and natural manifestation of the dzogchen view.

So if everyone wants to achieve what he achieved, but yet there is no achievement... so then they are all already great masters and the practice shouldnt exist?

We do not start out as great masters because our ignorance gets in the way.

There is plenty to be achieved until one truly realizes that there is nothing to be achieved.

Then it's enough to sit and laugh and leave things as they are.

Even then, one may continue on the bodhisattva path because, after all, as long as we're alive we tend to be driven to do things and nothing supports our practice and happiness, and that of those around us, more than helping others.

Furthermore, a deep understanding of the dzogchen view leads to the natural manifestation of enlightened qualities.

The practices certainly should and do exist, it is just that they are not helpful for everyone.

Is Dzogchen self defeating?

It certainly can be.

Many folks come to the teachings without adequate preparation and do not understand or realize the teachings.

Some misunderstand the intent and the teachings can actually be counter-productive for those people.

In these cases, self-defeating is an accurate description but it does not describe the teachings, which are themselves fine, it describes the person who comes to the teachings without proper guidance or preparation.

"Dzogchen is widely translated as “Great Perfection”, but this may imply a perfection that we strive to attain, and this is not the meaning of Dzogchen. Dzogchen is explained as Ground, Path and Fruition, and from the point of view of the Ground, it is the already self-perfected state of our primordial nature, which needs no ‘perfecting’, for it has always been perfect from the very beginning, just like the sky. It is uncreated, yet spontaneously accomplished."

Dzogchen is considered the most sophisticated, advanced, and elusive of all spiritual paths in Buddhism and Bön.

It is no surprise that it is not easily understood. Much more surprising actually when someone truly gets it without years or decades of study and preparation.

It's not all that different from opening a book of differential equations with no foundation in calculus and just not getting it. We're talking about very advanced subject matter that requires a solid foundation in the fundamentals. Not understanding doesn't mean that differential equations are ineffective or shouldn't exist, in fact, they are just as effective whether you get it or not. Same with dzogchen, the truth to which the teachings refer is as it is whether we get it or not.

CloudHands · June 6, 2016

Dzogchen.

I got a lot of respect for you man and the way you speak tells a lot.

Then question

All these things you say about dzogchen sound a lot like daoism (contradiction, paradox, elusive, acceptation, one true way -> wu-wei) what do you find in dzogchen that complete daoism ?

Maybe a less "shortcuted" question should be, where do I start with or... what synthesize it best ?

steve · June 6, 2016

I got a lot of respect for you man and the way you speak tells a lot.

Thank you for that.

Then question

All these things you say about dzogchen sound a lot like daoism (contradiction, paradox, elusive, acceptation, one true way -> wu-wei) what do you find in dzogchen that complete daoism ?

Maybe a less "shortcuted" question should be, where do I start with or... what synthesize it best ?

I agree with you that there are very strong parallels in Buddhism and Daoism.

Plenty of differences for sure but, at the end of the day, both are describing what we label reality and our realm of experience.

And when you get down to the core, they are saying the same thing - this existence is as it is and there is no need to worry about it. The teachings of dzogchen tell us that everything is spontaneously perfected and we need do nothing - leave everything as it is. It goes on to tell us that when we really connect with this truth at a deep level, we will always do the right thing naturally. It is no different from the Daoist teachings on wu wei, de, and ziran. Both are pointing to the fact that we are really nothing more than an orifice through which the universe (or the nature of mind) is self aware and does everything, including us. We simply need to figure out how to not get in its way...

In my opinion, there is no best way to approach this stuff.

There are infinite ways.

The best is what seems like it makes the most sense to you at this moment in time, and that can change.

I can't tell anyone but myself where to start.

I will say this, many people talk about finding your own path and doing it all on your own.

That didn't work so well for me. I do better with an established lineage and credible teacher.

There are so many ways to approach this stuff and so many ways to waste time and effort.

And life is short, very short!

The benefits of the lineage and teacher are multiple - a foundation of trust, others have weeded out many of the distractions and non-productive detours, an opportunity to ask questions and get support from the master, an opportunity to compare notes with others on a similar path, and so forth. And it is much easier to find credible Buddhist (and Bönpo) teachers than Daoist in my experience.

If I had to pick one book (and practice) to recommend it would Awakening the Luminous Mind by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche.

He presents core dzogchen (trekchod) practices in the first half of the book in an extremely accessible way.

I've never worked with more powerful practices in my life. And he has lots of free support resources available.

It is not about the theory and concept, but about a very direct way to experience it.

Good luck!

ralis · June 7, 2016

Read Snellgove's translation of the Hevajra Tantra and in the first couple of pages he states as to how poorly written this particular text was. Reason being is that when the ancient Sanskrit texts that were introduced to Tibetans, none spoke or read Sanskrit and were basically illiterate. Further, there were scholars in the last century that went to Tibet looking for original Sanskrit texts and none were found. Some may argue this point, but I prefer to side with a scholar such as Snellgrove as opposed to a shill.

I have read through many texts and seen as to how words were changed which distorts the meaning.

CloudHands · June 7, 2016

Read Snellgove's translation of the Hevajra Tantra and in the first couple of pages he states as to how poorly written this particular text was. Reason being is that when the ancient Sanskrit texts that were introduced to Tibetans, none spoke or read Sanskrit and were basically illiterate. Further, there were scholars in the last century that went to Tibet looking for original Sanskrit texts and none were found. Some may argue this point, but I prefer to side with a scholar such as Snellgrove as opposed to a shill.

I have read through many texts and seen as to how words were changed which distorts the meaning.

Are you saying that Tibetan Buddhism is a fraud ?

steve · June 7, 2016

Translating spiritual Tibetan texts can be quite challenging, especially Dzogchen.

I am always a bit wary, especially when the translator is not an advanced practitioner.

This is one reason why receiving the teachings directly from a teacher is so important.

At least there is some quality control there.

I recently attended a retreat on the Bön Dzogchen A-khrid teachings given by His Holiness the 33rd Menri Trizin Lungtok Tenpai Nyima Rinpoche. He focused first on the basic instructions of meditating with the A, then jumped to the concluding sessions regarding the nature of mind and decisively identifying the nature of mind and so forth, very challenging to translate. The translator was Jules Levinson, a very accomplished translator who has worked with His Holiness on many occasions, and he really struggled at times to make sense of the some of the language in the latter session. Sometimes it can be very poetic, even onomonopoetic. Other times it can be quite archaic. I must say he did a fantastic job and everyone approached the challenge with patience and humor.

The first English translation of the A-khrid teachings was done by Per Kvaerne, an early Bön scholar. He could not finish the last 4 "sessions" due to the difficulty of the language and (non)concepts. Since then, Jean-Luc Achard has done an abridged translation of all 15 "sessions" which does a good job getting the message across, albeit without most of the poetry and much of the subtlety.

Dan Brown, a very accomplished practitioner and translator, was at the retreat and said that his translation of the A-khrid teachings will be published soon, I believe by Wisdom Publications.

Jetsun · June 7, 2016

I dont understand how people can write that Dzogchen is not about perfecting. But yet Dzogchen can have all of these rainbow body achievements and developments that their practitioners strive to achieve? Dzogchen is based on Padmasambhava who attained rainbow body and apparently shrunk.

So if everyone wants to achieve what he achieved, but yet there is no achievement... so then they are all already great masters and the practice shouldnt exist? Is Dzogchen self defeating?

"Dzogchen is widely translated as “Great Perfection”, but this may imply a perfection that we strive to attain, and this is not the meaning of Dzogchen. Dzogchen is explained as Ground, Path and Fruition, and from the point of view of the Ground, it is the already self-perfected state of our primordial nature, which needs no ‘perfecting’, for it has always been perfect from the very beginning, just like the sky. It is uncreated, yet spontaneously accomplished."

The issue for us humans is the recognition of this perfection rather than an attainment of it, so yeah it is true there is already inherent perfection yet we don't acknowledge it or realise it. The path of Dzogchen is therefore to try to help you make this shift from non-recognition to recognition of what already is.

Wells · June 7, 2016