Best reference books for entheogens, psychotropic, hallucinogenic and poisonous plants?

[ralis]

Almost hate to mention it but many of Wright's designs proved to be structurally unsound.

 

Especially, his cantilever design in the photo that DreamBliss included a few posts ago.

[ralis]

Your implication is of course that being young and inexperienced is a negative, that it is bad or somehow lacking. I say it is better to be young and inexperienced than old and inflexible! I will also point out that none of these plants growing around us came with instruction manuals, so whatever energy or force has brought them into human experience doesn't seem too concerned with our youth or inexperience. It seems a clear enough message to us to try and learn for ourselves. After all the first shaman never had a teacher.

 

Also when you believe that something is powerful you give it power of you. As I said I have been, am and will continue to be responsible and respectful. But I am not going to submit to abject threats intended to control or direct or influence me to fear. We have quite enough of that in modern society's obsession with controlling everything. I still remember the DARE police lying to me about drugs, including marijuana. I may have been young and inexperienced, but even way back then I sensed something was off.

 

I never said that being young or inexperienced was a negative. All I said was to not be naive when it comes to psychoactive substances. I seriously doubt that anyone who is older and perhaps wiser, will dispense much guidance on this subject to someone who is anonymous on this forum.

 

Are you accusing me of being old and inflexible?

 

Critical thinking is most useful in all matters of life.

Edited January 29, 2016 by ralis

[Brian]

Especially, his cantilever design in the photo that DreamBliss included a few posts ago.

Yeah, I likely would have ignored the issue had he not specifically called attention to Fallingwater.

[Nungali]

Yes, and to gain the knowledge of how to use it properly requires an apprenticeship to an experienced curandera.

It's not something one can learn from books.

One needs to be invited and introduced and, if accepted, then spend a lifetime developing a relationship to the spirits.

It is not to be taken casually.

 

....  sounds very similar to  being 'a shaman'   .   Although some seem to think  that comes about  by saying one is one  ? 

[silent thunder]

It's inevitable that some folks have a very harsh reaction to these topics.

Everyone's reaction is their own, but just their own and to say unequivocally that all should follow your own view of these matters if fundamentalist and projective in nature.  In the end, none of us know how we will react to anything until we're in the midst of it.  Yes it may be very trying and difficult, it may be amazing.  Don't know if the water is deep til you get in... you can sit and project from the shore all you want, but the realm of thoughts is not the realm of experience.

 

It's entirely possible, I've witnessed it personally, to have a psyche breaking bad trip with no entheogens at all, just sitting at the dinner table for Thanksgiving, or Australia Day... should we say all large family gatherings are potentially dangerous and should be avoided without the proper guidance of a family shaman?

 

Relax folks, nothing wrong with some healthy advice... but the all or nothing blanket statements are tiring, overly-authoritative and in the end, just how you feel about it.  The world is a flowing process and these plants are part of it.  I have talked down several friends who've had very hard 'trips', but I have also had the exact same level and type of conversations that were just as debilitating and harsh, where no chemicals of any kind were involved, other than extremely unkind actions and words by supposed 'loved ones'.

 

In the end, everything in life that can cause a reaction has an entheogenic property to our awareness.  For me personally, nothing I have ever ingested as a 'drug' has ever come close to being as powerful as my experiences in Pranayama.  Should I then outlaw breathing exercises, because they might shake me out of my stupor? 

 

When exploring the psyche, it's advisable to prepare and approach with respect, but I'd say the exact same thing of getting in your car and driving to the airport.  Life is not inherently safe.  Live.  Jump in the water if you're inclined, if not, sit on the shore and project and contemplate.  Nothing is wrong with either, life is life.

[Nungali]

Almost hate to mention it but many of Wright's designs proved to be structurally unsound.

 

 

he was an architect , not an engineer     .   

 

Dont hate to mention it ...    I committed the sin once of criticising that design ;  I called it ' thick slabs intersected by thin slabs over a creek ' .... pretty picture from the right angle .  

[ralis]

....  sounds very similar to  being 'a shaman'   .   Although some seem to think  that comes about  by saying one is one  ? 

 

Back in the 80's and 90's when a number of books were published regarding shamanism, workshops began to emerge in which the purveyors of, charged thousands to become a shaman, all in one weekend. The only equipment one needed to bring was a drum and rattle, lest I forget, a deep wallet for further training.

[Nungali]

Especially, his cantilever design in the photo that DreamBliss included a few posts ago.

 

 

Its a good example though, dont you think .....     for the idea behind this thread  ( looks great  from a distance ... structurally unsound  though       )

[Nungali]

Back in the 80's and 90's when a number of books were published regarding shamanism, workshops began to emerge in which the purveyors of, charged thousands to become a shaman, all in one weekend. The only equipment one needed to bring was a drum and rattle, lest I forget, a deep wallet for further training.

 

 

Oh man ..... I catered  for one once  

 

I worked at this small retreat centre further up the river from my place, as a gardener , cook and  sometime manager. This guy booked it for a 5 day retreat and came with a bunch of people from the city to do a 'Shaman's workshop' .  They put up a teepee (yes, we are still in Australia for this story ) and they did 'secret stuff in there' .  Then they cut some bamboo and he taught them staff fighting for 'warrior skills ' - you should have seen what he was showing them !       .   Then he took them over the river into the rainforest  (about a 50 metre journey ) to find their power rock .   I was watching them trying to cross the knee deep river , oh dear!  One girl got a leech and screamed and  her BF  was trying to get it off her with a stick   while he nearly screamed too    .

 

Then this guy said he wanted to feed them less, then nothing so they could fast .... also they had to talk less, until there was total silence (except for him) .   The owner was concerned as he was supposed to be paying for meals as well and we had already bought the food.  He wanted us to take the cost of the meals they didnt have off our charges !

 

Great idea though .... get people to pay there fee, cut back their food to save money and then dont let them speak so they cant complain about it .       

 

Anyway... they  all departed with their power rock, a stick with some feathers tied to it and a feeling of being a shaman . 

 

 

And in a thread about drugs, shamans, ayahuasca , and hipsters ....... how can I not  post this   (yet again   ) 

 

 

 

[ralis]

he was an architect , not an engineer     .   

 

Dont hate to mention it ...    I committed the sin once of criticising that design ;  I called it ' thick slabs intersected by thin slabs over a creek ' .... pretty picture from the right angle .  

 

Architects have required engineering course work to complete their degree and even in the 30's, the applied structural engineering specifications for such a projects as Hoover Dam, The Golden Gate Bridge, were everyday engineering processes.

 

The restoration cost is around 11.5 million.

[Nungali]

yeah .... preceded by a     , an 'engineer's joke' .

 

11.5 mill to restore ?  What, to fix up  ' Falling Water ' ?   

 

     

[ralis]

yeah .... preceded by a     , an 'engineer's joke' .

 

11.5 mill to restore ?  What, to fix up  ' Falling Water ' ?   

 

     

 

I guess I didn't get the joke.

 

http://old.post-gazette.com/lifestyle/20011208lowry1208fnp3.asp

[ralis]

Out here in the SW USA, there were many and still may be some, that came here looking to learn ancient Indian Medicine. Usually, it was a beautiful blond blue eyed woman with dreams of becoming a shaman. Most of these unfortunate souls found themselves in an abusive relationship. The problem is that among all the pueblo people here, there are no shamans to carry on the ancient traditions. Alcoholism and extreme poverty has decimated almost all traditions, except feast days with traditional dancing.

 

There are a few 'Sun Dancers' around from the Ute tribe in Utah, but those dudes are in an entirely different world.

Edited January 29, 2016 by ralis

[steve]

As for Steve and others who have posted similar sentiments... I advise caution with this, "leave it to the authorities" attitude. Please forgive me for being blunt, but that is sheep-like behavior. You are a human being, not a sheep. Think for yourself!

Yes, I am human and I do think for myself. I also learn from others with gratitude and humility. I have experimented with entheogens without guidance, and I recommend caution and guidance for those who want to get the most out of the experience. 

 

 

I will not argue that others may have experience or know better about certain things. But I will certainly argue that this means we should leave everything to those who may have more experience or know better. Both experience and knowledge is acquired, everyone you think of as experienced and knowledgeable started out the same as you.

 

And it certainly does not mean that everyone with more experience or knowledge automatically knows better than you. You are the only authority on you, stop looking to others!

Then why are you looking for books? 

You are willing to blindly trust the authority of a book but not learn directly from a master?

You are saying that if a stranger wrote information down in a book years ago, you will accept that and use it as the basis of your knowledge and practice but I am a sheep if I meet and connect with a living master and learn from their living knowledge and action.

How does that make sense?

All of your criticism of my recommendation for a teacher is equally valid for your dependency on books which are far less useful than a living teacher. 

 

Certainly we should use our own judgement and be our own authority. We should question our teachers (and books!). The difference is the teacher can respond, the book cannot. There are times when we should completely go it alone and blaze the trail. Not a good idea when it comes to eating toxic roots, leaves, and mushrooms.

 

 

Frank Lloyd Wright didn't know jack shit about architecture. He stepped out one day, I think there had been a huge fire (the Chicago or Boston fires), and he saw someone die, I think it was when a building was falling apart. He though about how he could make buildings safer. He had no experience or knowledge. He dived in to help rebuild and learned how to do things like this as a result:

 

We can't do that today. Because of man's laws and this prevailing attitude that you have to leave it to others with more experience or knowledge, we no longer have Frank Lloyd Wrights, Einsteins, Leonardo DaVincis or Nikola Teslas. We are taught we have to go to school for some extended period of time or leave it to the professionals. We never question this. I exhort you to start questioning.

 

Do not, ever, accept the limitations of others! And do not, ever, impose limitations on others!

I don't advocate accepting the limitations of others or imposing limitations on others.

I'm simply saying it is better to learn from a living master than a book. 

And question that master. Adopt what works for you and adapt or abandon what doesn't. 

For sure, each of us is our own ultimate authority. We need to take responsibility for ourselves and our progress and choices.

And when ingesting toxic substances, it is a good idea to use caution and have some expert guidance.

You agree with that or you wouldn't be asking about books.

 

Acknowledging that others can help us on the path is not weakness, it is strength.

Respecting those that have gone before us is not being sheep, it is being intelligent and efficient. 

I do respect those that choose to blaze a trail and if that is your choice, go for it.

But don't kid yourself that you are doing it on your own by reading books. 

Those are just static, anonymous, two dimensional teachers that you will likely never meet or be able to question.

[steve]

I'll also add that in looking over my posts I definitely come across as more dogmatic than I intended. 

To a large degree I think my comments came from concern for the well being of others - I can be overly protective sometimes.

I meant well.

[DreamBliss]

Almost hate to mention it but many of Wright's designs proved to be structurally unsound.

 

You will of course have to prove this, because my understanding is the exact opposite. The only buildings of his that have come down have been destroyed purposefully, as far as I know.

[DreamBliss]

I never said that being young or inexperienced was a negative. All I said was to not be naive when it comes to psychoactive substances. I seriously doubt that anyone who is older and perhaps wiser, will dispense much guidance on this subject to someone who is anonymous on this forum.

 

Are you accusing me of being old and inflexible?

 

Critical thinking is most useful in all matters of life.

 

Well I never said what you said or didn't say, only what I felt you were implying, if that makes any sense at all... I am making no accusations, and I am not asking anyone for guidance on this subject, only for the best book titles on the subject. I would expect that if anyone here was willing to teach me I would have to go to them, in person, to begin training.

Edited January 30, 2016 by DreamBliss

[DreamBliss]

....  sounds very similar to  being 'a shaman'   .   Although some seem to think  that comes about  by saying one is one  ? 

 

How many times must I repeat myself? Nungali, clean that wax out of your ears man!

 

Oh wait, we are reading words here, so maybe I should write something about using glasses...

 

Anyhow...

 

I never chose to be a shaman or claimed to be one. This path and title was given to me.

 

I really do not know how to explain this or justify to anyone, so I won't bother to try.

 

I will just continue to correct those who believe or think that I gave this title to myself.

[Nungali]

The best way to correct a mistaken Nungali is to explain to him why  he is mistaken. 

[ralis]

How many times must I repeat myself? Nungali, clean that wax out of your ears man!

 

Oh wait, we are reading words here, so maybe I should write something about using glasses...

 

Anyhow...

 

I never chose to be a shaman or claimed to be one. This path and title was given to me.

 

I really do not know how to explain this or justify to anyone, so I won't bother to try.

 

I will just continue to correct those who believe or think that I gave this title to myself.

 

So, you were given the title of shaman? Granted by a weekend workshop? FYI, to become a shaman takes decades and a NDE experience is the usually precursor for it.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Archaic-Techniques-Ecstasy-Bollingen/dp/0691119422/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1454121771&sr=1-3&keywords=shamanism

[Nungali]

Besides DB , I was refering to what you said about the way you believe psychoactives should be taken .... my comment was that  your explanations , conditions, practises sound the same as what is required to become a shaman. Yet some take drugs willy-nilly, without any of those considerations , like the way some people approach 'shamanism'  nowadays .

 

 

here  :  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

or if you prefer ;

 

[DreamBliss]

Yes, I am human and I do think for myself. I also learn from others with gratitude and humility. I have experimented with entheogens without guidance, and I recommend caution and guidance for those who want to get the most out of the experience. 

 

Then why are you looking for books? 

You are willing to blindly trust the authority of a book but not learn directly from a master?

You are saying that if a stranger wrote information down in a book years ago, you will accept that and use it as the basis of your knowledge and practice but I am a sheep if I meet and connect with a living master and learn from their living knowledge and action.

 

How does that make sense?

All of your criticism of my recommendation for a teacher is equally valid for your dependency on books which are far less useful than a living teacher. 

 

Certainly we should use our own judgement and be our own authority. We should question our teachers (and books!). The difference is the teacher can respond, the book cannot. There are times when we should completely go it alone and blaze the trail. Not a good idea when it comes to eating toxic roots, leaves, and mushrooms.

 

 

I don't advocate accepting the limitations of others or imposing limitations on others.

I'm simply saying it is better to learn from a living master than a book. 

And question that master. Adopt what works for you and adapt or abandon what doesn't. 

For sure, each of us is our own ultimate authority. We need to take responsibility for ourselves and our progress and choices.

And when ingesting toxic substances, it is a good idea to use caution and have some expert guidance.

You agree with that or you wouldn't be asking about books.

 

Acknowledging that others can help us on the path is not weakness, it is strength.

Respecting those that have gone before us is not being sheep, it is being intelligent and efficient. 

I do respect those that choose to blaze a trail and if that is your choice, go for it.

But don't kid yourself that you are doing it on your own by reading books. 

Those are just static, anonymous, two dimensional teachers that you will likely never meet or be able to question.

 

Hoah boy... Can you hear me sighing way over here?

 

I was responding to this, "Yes, and to gain the knowledge of how to use it properly requires an apprenticeship to an experienced curandera. It's not something one can learn from books. One needs to be invited and introduced and, if accepted, then spend a lifetime developing a relationship to the spirits. It is not to be taken casually."

 

That is the "leave it to the authorities" (or dogmatic, if you prefer) vibe I was referring to and sensing from your words. I was trying to express that training from an experience curandera or shaman is not required. Invitations and introductions are not required. A lifetime developing a relationship to the spirits is not required. Also you can learn from books, and you can take this subject causally.

 

By saying all this stuff is required you set it on some pedestal and it becomes a sort of golden idol for you. It takes on religious overtones, and I am trying, desperately, to steer you away from that. This is not something holy, It is not some Ark of the Covenant that if you touch it you will die. It is not greater than you. Why do you think Zen came into being? It was a direct response to Buddhism becoming yet another religion. And now Zen is suffering the same fate.

 

All these ceremonies, reverential attitudes, worshiping - its all complete and utter crap. It obscures the very heart of the practice. It makes each person dependent on others in their spiritual path, instead of allowing them to experience God for themselves. It creates converts, which is (literally in the Christan sense) another word for sheep.

 

I am not against learning from a teacher. In fact the opposite is true, I would rather learn from a teacher than a book! But I have no teacher, as I have said over and over and over again around here. I have books. So I make due with what I have. And while I will not be disrespectful, because I am also not stupid, I am not going to go wash myself with frikkin' holy water, put on a clean white robe, and burn sage around my person, all because of some misguided sense that any of this has to be taken seriously!

 

You know I read a coupe of Ram Dass's books, how he found his master and kissed his feet, and I suppose this is the sort of thing one does when one takes all this seriously. But I remember thinking how utterly gross and stupid that was. I can't help but have some criticism and judgment here. Maybe one day I will see differently. But for now I see it as a man is a man is a man, and has to wipe his arse like everyone else, no matter how enlightened he or she may be.

 

I apologize for my harsh tone here. It is not my intention to offend you. I am just expressing myself as clearly as possible. Maybe you can see why I was drawn to Zen... Being casual and disrespectful is a part of my spiritual practice...

Edited January 30, 2016 by DreamBliss

[DreamBliss]

Besides DB , I was refering to what you said about the way you believe psychoactives should be taken .... my comment was that  your explanations , conditions, practises sound the same as what is required to become a shaman. Yet some take drugs willy-nilly, without any of those considerations , like the way some people approach 'shamanism'  nowadays

 

The best way to correct a mistaken Nungali is to explain to him why  he is mistaken. 

 

No will-nilliness here. I may be casual, divergent and disrespectful (among other things) but I will not be careless, irresponsible or stupid. I may have said earlier that I will also be respectful, but only to a certain, limited, non-fear based, non-religious or reverential based, extent.

 

As I said I can not explain myself. It is really nothing more than a feeling of rightness about it, a feeling I have been chosen, although for the life of me I have no idea why.

 

It comes from, as you have seen me mention before, when I re-entered a dream for the first time and was met by a spirit animal. I was a Christian at the time, it was my first dream re-entry, and a fox was not a part of the original dream. Suffice it to say I was caught completely off-guard.

 

There were many inner journeys after that as well as meetings with other spiritual entities. I have had no formal training in any of this. I hope to return to the practices, and to find or be found by a proper teacher (not a workshop.)

 

Besides, I am far too old to play with sticks and go looking for power rocks. Also I am far too poor to buy the title of shaman...

Edited January 30, 2016 by DreamBliss

[steve]

Hoah boy... Can you hear me sighing way over here?

 

I was responding to this, "Yes, and to gain the knowledge of how to use it properly requires an apprenticeship to an experienced curandera. It's not something one can learn from books. One needs to be invited and introduced and, if accepted, then spend a lifetime developing a relationship to the spirits. It is not to be taken casually."

 

That is the "leave it to the authorities" (or dogmatic, if you prefer) vibe I was referring to and sensing from your words. I was trying to express that training from an experience curandera or shaman is not required. Invitations and introductions are not required. A lifetime developing a relationship to the spirits is not required. Also you can learn from books, and you can take this subject causally.

 

By saying all this stuff is required you set it on some pedestal and it becomes a sort of golden idol for you. It takes on religious overtones, and I am trying, desperately, to steer you away from that. This is not something holy, It is not some Ark of the Covenant that if you touch it you will die. It is not greater than you. Why do you think Zen came into being? It was a direct response to Buddhism becoming yet another religion. And now Zen is suffering the same fate.

 

All these ceremonies, reverential attitudes, worshiping - its all complete and utter crap. It obscures the very heart of the practice. It makes each person dependent on others in their spiritual path, instead of allowing them to experience God for themselves. It creates converts, which is (literally in the Christan sense) another word for sheep.

 

I am not against learning from a teacher. In fact the opposite is true, I would rather learn from a teacher than a book! But I have no teacher, as I have said over and over and over again around here. I have books. So I make due with what I have. And while I will not be disrespectful, because I am also not stupid, I am not going to go wash myself with frikkin' holy water, put on a clean white robe, and burn sage around my person, all because of some misguided sense that any of this has to be taken seriously!

 

You know I read a coupe of Ram Dass's books, how he found his master and kissed his feet, and I suppose this is the sort of thing one does when one takes all this seriously. But I remember thinking how utterly gross and stupid that was. I can't help but have some criticism and judgment here. Maybe one day I will see differently. But for now I see it as a man is a man is a man, and has to wipe his arse like everyone else, no matter how enlightened he or she may be.

 

I apologize for my harsh tone here. It is not my intention to offend you. I am just expressing myself as clearly as possible. Maybe you can see why I was drawn to Zen... Being casual and disrespectful is a part of my spiritual practice...

 

I wish you well

[liminal_luke]

What´s wrong with reverence? Reverence signals humility, a willingness to enter into a relationship with the plant spirit. With reverence you´re a shaman smoking a peace pipe and connecting through tobacco with unfathomable mystery. Without reverence you´re just another bloke taking a smoke break.

Edited January 30, 2016 by liminal_luke