Buddhism and the subtle energy body

[Tibetan_Ice]

The third one looks interesting, did you like it?

I didn't like it, I practiced it and loved it.

[steve]

Again with the nihilism? Emptiness and appearances cannot be separated.

No, not nihilism - emptiness.

There is a difference.

 

Appearances are also empty.

 

Saying things "really do exist" is an error of eternalism

Saying things are empty is not nihilism. If the realization of emptiness is there, it is wisdom.

If the realization of emptiness is not there, it is conceptualization but it is heading in the right direction.

Saying that things really do not exist would be an error of nihilism.

 

 

 

 

If you don't know about chakras, what would you understand this is all about?

 

From Heart Drops of Dharmakaya:

. ? .

 

Your quote is a conceptualization of the energetic basis for visions.

 

We clearly approach these teachings in different ways.

That is fine - there are many ways to approach the material.

I wish you well in your study and practice.

[steve]

If I might interject here - it isn't very Buddhist to talk about things really existing and yet at the same time it is a mistake to think this applies more to subtle things than physical objects.  Since all phenomena are empty of self then everything is illusory including the internet and this message board.  But of course in a relative sense - a conventional sense these things do exist - and I'm not saying that from the 'two truths' perspective but more practical common sense.  The thing about chakras and the subtle body is that while I would say they exist as much as our physical bodies do - they are responsive, fluid, communicative energy structures.  So they respond more easily to the observer and any concepts held by the observer.  Hence we have a number of similar but slightly different systems for describing the structure of the subtle body, the number and position of chakras or other foci within it.

 

I like your description of the chakras.

 

 

And as a side note - we think we know what our physical bodies are because familiarity breeds contempt but actually they also are a fascinating mystery.

 

What a wonderful thing to recognize.

As is everything else our experience encounters.

What beautiful magic!

[steve]

I wouldn't say I am getting blocked by the relationship of the central channel, heart chakra, 3rd eye, and crown, just that i have a very specific order in mind, and i am interested in any and all information that addresses this order, and the difference that this order might make. I am not playing a mind game, I am examining information I have been given to test its validity, though I do believe this information explicitly, still I like to look around and compare what I believe with what other people describe. In this process, if something I believe has never been described by anyone on a legitimate spiritual path, then I would be inclined to keep examining this particular belief.

Sorry to be presumptuous.

Please take or leave anything I say, at your discretion.

 

 

So far, everything else I have come across I have found can be validated quite easily according to Yoga knowledge of the subtle body, this particular issue of the order of the chakras is harder to validate though, and discussing it here I thought perhaps someone might have read a reference to it that they might share.

 

The only other reference apart from Tibetan Buddhism I have come across is Edgar Cayce, his readings identify the seventh chakra as ­the third-eye chakra, which he further identifies with the Pituitary Gland. Identifying the third eye with the pituitary gland also makes a big difference. He described the arrangement of the chakras as being in the shape of a shepherd’s crook. When he was asked about his order which didn’t concur with the typical Yoga order, he said that he did not care what others were saying, but he was giving the correct arrangement. 

 

This is just one person's information, I would still love to talk to a Tibetan Master about this issue, but where I am they are in short supply. In one sense I can just wait and see, but curiosity tends to be stronger in me than disinterest. 

You could try to connect with a Tibetan master online.

There are lots of credible masters teaching in the West.

Many of them are quite connected in cyber-space and some are quite approachable.

 

It's nice to see someone acknowledge the benefit of connecting with a credible teacher.

So much time is wasted on wrong views and practices. 

Expert guidance is quite precious in this sort of discipline.

[Bindi]

This is part of an article that was posted here: http://thedaobums.com/topic/39085-what-is-the-meaning-of-siddhis-or-special-powers/page-3#entry640591, it seemed so relevant to this thread that I wanted to post it here.
 

What I find really fascinating is His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, is encouraging scientific research into this [siddhi’s] topic. And he is doing this with full awareness of the difficulties:

I am well aware, however, of the danger of tying spiritual belief to any scientific system. . . . This is not to say that I consider things like the oracle and the ability of monks to survive nights spent out in freezing condition to be evidence of magical powers. Yet I cannot agree with our Chinese Brothers and sisters, who hold that Tibetan acceptance of these phenomena is evidence of our backwardness and barbarity. Even from the most rigorous scientific viewpoint, this is not an objective attitude. At the same time, even if a principle is accepted, it does not mean that everything connected with it is valid. . . . . Great vigilance must be maintained at all times when dealing in areas about which we do not have great understanding. This, of course, is where science can help. After all, we consider things to be mysterious only when we do not understand them. . . . . Through mental training, we have developed techniques to do things which science cannot yet adequately explain. This, then, is the basis of the supposed ‘magic and mystery’ of Tibetan Buddhism. (Dalai Lama, 2002, pp. 230-243)

Ignorance is a major obstacle on the path. The scientific method has “truth” as its aim. Does a real and deep understanding of the process of psi enable one not to fall into the traps surrounding the development and use of psychic abilities? I think it does and I think that this is one of the best reasons for undertaking parapsychological research within the Tibetan culture.

PARAPSYCHOLOGY
Where Science and Magic Meet
Tibetan Psychic Traditions
TIBETAN PSYCHIC TRADITIONS
By S.M.RONEY-DOUGAL
INTRODUCTION

 
"We consider things to be mysterious only when we do not understand them. . ."

"Ignorance is a major obstacle on the path"

In this article the author considered greater scientific knowledge of subtle energies to be particuly useful in order to not fall into the potential spiritual trap of specifically cultivating "Dibba-cakkhu (clairvoyance), Dibba-sota (clairaudience), Mano-Maya-Kaya (projection of the ‘astral body’) and other paranormal powers" as "to those not yet fully emancipated from worldly delusion they can become attachment-forming faculties, and as such have to be guarded against and overcome in the struggle for Nibbanna. In the Buddhist view, one who embarks on concentration exercises to obtain supernormal powers (Iddhi) is doing so with the wrong intention and at great danger to himself. If all power corrupts, supernormal power can corrupt superlatively."

[RigdzinTrinley]

I think i said that somewhere in this thread, I just repeat myself because its worth repeating this

 

 

Shantideva said:

Method without wisdom is poison

[RigdzinTrinley]

...

Edited January 22, 2016 by RigdzinTrinley

[3bob]

yep wisdom will trump knowledge every time, oh heck I used the 't' word - 

[RigdzinTrinley]

You don't like Mr Trump?

[3bob]

RT, if he spent a lot time with you and was under your influence, then maybe?