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#193 Wu Ming Jen

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Posted 28 November 2015 - 02:58 PM

If anyone ever asks you to pay for such teachings you can be sure it's a scam.  Morepie has never charged me anything, nor anyone else in the group. 

Are you saying you get what you pay for? joking aside I am glad to hear it is not a marketing scheme.


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#194 Infolad1

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 12:12 AM

I did find this to be an interesting page of kostas second book. He clearly states that Mabu is required with level 1, and without it damage will be done to yourself. He also states this is directly from John Chang in the form of a story he was told about his understanding of the training he(John Chang) received from Liao. 

 

This is from the book, not something made up by us or our opinions on training. It's the opinion of Kostas, quoted profusely as a pro mo pai tactic. Why quoting it to ask a relevant question regarding the training is it dismissed and regarded as trolling. 

 

Wlldcat came out of the blue, conveniently after Dayshayz was suspended. Then continued to say the same things over and over just like the other man. I wasn't trolling, and was trying my best to be courteous towards you guys. I guess now you will use this as yet another "example" how the mo pai group are being targeted. 

 

I have no words.

Rudolf_safie, I really want to commend you for pointing out this great, and missed point.

 

Both standing, and sitting gongs are the basic tech In every legitimate martial art (both 

so called "External", and "Internal") I've ever seen, or trained In.

 

I've trained In the Wu-Tang system of Grandmaster Liu Yun Chiao for the past 10 years.

I've been certified to teach Yang Style Tai Chi Quan for the past 5.

 

Ma Bu is THE key to building your Initial Internal power. Learning correct breathing is

difficult for the average person, so I don't emphasize It until later, once students figure out

the Initial biomechanics. 

 

You start off with 5 minutes, and work your way up to 30 minutes, for martial purposes, 

60+ minutes for cultivation purposes.

 

Mark Cohen's excellent book on Zhan Zhuang Is highly recommended:


Inside Zhan Zhuang: First Edition

http://www.amazon.co...g=UTF8&qid=&sr=

 

In addition to his Information packed blog:

 

https://insidezhanzh...ess.com/page/3/

 

Once you understand the structure of the connective tissues, It all comes together:

 

"Excerpts from the articles in Readings on the Scientific Basis of Bodywork and Movement Therapies
by James L. Oschman, Ph.D. and Nora H. Oschman
 
The connective tissue and myofascial systems
 
The connective tissue is a continuous fabric extending throughout the animal body, even into the innermost parts of each cell. All of the great systems of the body --the circulation, the nervous system, the musculo-skeletal system, the digestive tract, the various organs -- all are ensheathed in connective tissue. It is an organ of form, relationship, support, communication, and movement.
 
Connective tissue is a composite material, consisting of strong insoluble collagen fibers embedded in a gel-like ground substance. The fibers are arranged in highly ordered, crystalline arrays. Like many other crystals, connective tissue is piezoelectric, i.e. it generates electric fields when compressed or stretched. Hence any movement of any part of the body, muscle, bone, skin, blood vessel, etc., generates characteristic electrical fields that spread through the surrounding tissues. Since collagen is a semiconductor, the connective tissue is an integrated electronic network that allows all parts of the organism to communicate with each other."
 

 

Electric Universe - The Human Story - James Oschman

 

Dr. Oschman has a number of papers on this, that I would cite, given enough time.

 

Brian made a great point about having actual science to back up claims. The above is

a great place to start, along with the following:

 

Qigong as a Traditional Vegetative Biofeedback Therapy: Long-Term Conditioning of Physiological Mind-Body Effects

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC4475564/

 

The PDF download is free. Here are important excerpts, with photos:

 

Abstract

A contemporary understanding of Chinese Medicine (CM) regards CM diagnosis as a functional vegetative state that may be treated by vegetative reflex therapies such as acupuncture. Within this context, traditional mind-body exercises such as Qigong can be understood as an attempt to enhance physiological proprioception, by combining a special state of “awareness” with posture, movement, and breath control.

 

We have formerly trained young auditing flutists in “White Ball” Qigong to minimize anxiety-induced cold hands and lower anxiety-induced heart rate. Functional changes occurred 2–5 min after training and were observed over the whole training program, allowing the children to control their symptoms. In our current work, we report that warm fingers and calm hearts could be induced by the children even without Qigong exercises. (Emphasis mine)

 

Thus, these positive changes once induced and “conditioned” vegetatively were stable after weeks of training. This may show the mechanism by which Qigong acts as a therapeutic measure in disease: positive vegetative pathways may be activated instead of dysfunctional functional patterns. The positive vegetative patterns then may be available in critical stressful situations. Qigong exercise programs may therefore be understood as an ancient vegetative biofeedback exercise inducing positive vegetative functions which are added to the individual reactive repertoire.

 

 

2.2. Infrared Thermography

 

Experiments were performed at a mean room temperature of 20°C measured with a type K thermocouple connected to a Lab facility digital thermometer, model 2000L. An Infrared camera from FLIR, model A325 (sensibility < 0.07°C; precision ±2%), was used and supported by a tripod, placed 2 metres away from the target. Capture and image analysis were carried out with the program ThermaCAM Researcher Pro 2.9 from FLIR Systems, and the recording frequency was one photo every ten seconds.

 

Thermograms of the Qigong exercise ((a) before; ( B) after).

BMRI2015-531789.001.jpg

2.3. Qigong Posture and Training

The Qigong exercise selected for this study was the “White Ball” standing exercise according to the Heidelberg Model of TCM as described in detail elsewhere [10]. In brief, the exercise chosen from this system includes a nondynamic basic Qigong posture, similar to the Wu Chi posture in the Zhan Zhuang system [4143], minimizing the effects of physical movement. In the exercise, the imagination of holding the ball in front of the abdomen (so-called lower Dantian) is used to induce a sensation traditionally referred to as “qi” sensation, similar to “deqi” sensation observed in acupuncture. Children were instructed to do the exercise daily for seven weeks. They had accompanied training for 30 minutes with an experienced Qigong practitioner twice a week.

 
Anyone who wants to demonstrate real, objective proof as to their actual stage of practice, may want to add
 some of the above protocols to their testing. 
 
There have been tests developed to measure magnetic field projection, and far Infrared generation, by Qigong
practitioners.
 
Physical brain changes In the brains of meditators have been measured.
 
We are no longer restricted to subjective, anecdotal evidence for the physical effects of these practices.
 
And we are most assuredly no longer restricted to dated youTube videos that can no longer be directly
verified.
 
"Does It Work? Can You Give Proof That It Works? And Can You Replicate Your Results with Others?"
 
In  other words, a science based system.
 
Unfortunately, a couple of books, an email, and "my master/sifu/etc. said", does not make a system.
Great anecdotal evidence (which should never be discounted), but It wouldn't hold up to peer review.
 
For Mopai, or any system that wants to prove the efficacy of their system, there are physical transformations
that occur In real Neigong/Neidan. Thermal Imaging, MRI, accurate measurements of far Infrared, magnetic
fields, light (a Japanese team finally proved that humans generate bioluminescence), EEG(electroencephalogram),
etc., done by a recognized, accredited third party research team, would verify that your system, and It's
effects, are real to everyone.
 
For those that argue about price, you could initially get some postgraduate students to do It for a fraction of the price.
 
I plan to do exactly that, within the next 3 to 5 years.
 
Again, great stuff Rudolf. Kudos!

Edited by Infolad1, 29 November 2015 - 12:14 AM.

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#195 Miffymog

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 01:43 AM

Ma Bu is THE key to building your Initial Internal power. Learning correct breathing is

difficult for the average person, so I don't emphasize It until later, once students figure out

the Initial biomechanics. 

 

You start off with 5 minutes, and work your way up to 30 minutes, for martial purposes, 

60+ minutes for cultivation purposes.

 

Mark Cohen's excellent book on Zhan Zhuang Is highly recommended:

 

Just to add, there have been times when I've stood for up to 20 minutes, when you do feel the benefits, but currently I'm only standing for 5 mins. Initially I thought is it even worth it as the benefits are significantly less but they are there, it just takes much longer.


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#196 flyinghigh

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 02:40 AM

Ma Bu is THE key to building your Initial Internal power. Learning correct breathing is

difficult for the average person, so I don't emphasize It until later, once students figure out

the Initial biomechanics. 

 

You start off with 5 minutes, and work your way up to 30 minutes, for martial purposes, 

60+ minutes for cultivation purposes.

 

Are you talking about a low mabu horse stance here or the normally more upright zhanzhuang?

 

What do people think is the main difference between mabu and zhanzhuang?


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#197 soaring crane

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 03:31 AM

Are you talking about a low mabu horse stance here or the normally more upright zhanzhuang?

 

What do people think is the main difference between mabu and zhanzhuang?

 

good info here:

 

http://www.shaolin.o...rse-stance.html


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#198 flowing hands

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 04:35 AM

Most nei gong/qigong has a basic tenant of 'universal stance'. Universal stance is used so that the body is in a neutral position ready to stimulate the forces in the body and to absorb them from the universe. Even the most advance nei gong come back to this stance. Horse stance should only be used briefly, as it has a very strong stimulating effect on various aspects of the body. Horse stance is used in combination with dragon etc. for people with very weak internals. Even so it is not held for long and in martial forms the horse stance is only held for only seconds before the forms take and move on with other stances as the techniques flow from one to the other. Remember that these stances are martial and are not held deeply, but solidly for fractions of seconds. Any stances that are practised too deeply and held too long cannot be applied very easily in real martial circumstances. The flowing between stances and technique must therefore appear to be 'light' and not stolid. Neigong can be extremely powerful and strong; its effect on the body can be drastic.

 

Do not practice any form of neigong without the proper supervision of a reputable teacher and health matters/concerns being disclosed.


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#199 flyinghigh

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 04:57 AM

Flowing Hands, thanks for your comment.

But I've heard of many martial arts masters/neigong/qigong masters that they had to practice horse stance for quite a long time, one hour up to four hours, like is written about John Chang in Kosta's first book.


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#200 gendao

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 05:19 AM

Ma Bu is THE key to building your Initial Internal power. Learning correct breathing is difficult for the average person, so I don't emphasize It until later, once students figure out the Initial biomechanics.

Could you explain exactly how (the mechanism) that mabu builds internal power?


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Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. - Carl Jung
The ability to see in realtime that experience is not self is called enlightenment. - Kenneth Folk
Knowledge can be taught, but skill must be practiced.
Don't move the body - you train your Qi. Don't move your mind - you train your Spirit. - Fong Ha
I used to sit in full-lotus even on the can but there's not a lot of space in my bathroom. - drewhempel
It's easy for the mind to get confused but you can't fake the full lotus. - celibacyandsexualenergy


#201 Chang

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 05:36 AM

The correct practice of Ma Bu facilitates the movement of energy up the kidney meridian from the legs into the torso, thereby feeding into the microcosmic orbit.

 

I say the correct practice as it is important that the stance opens the kua which allows the progression of chi to move from the legs, through the pelvis and hence into the orbit.

 

The tension created in the muscles of the legs in Ma Bu acts as a pump to expedite the energy along its way.

 

Unfortunately although Ma Bu appears a simple stance to adopt i have seen twenty year practitioners of the Daoist Arts who still fail in the practice of this stance and posture which is so important to internal cultivation.


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#202 JinlianPai

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 06:13 AM

Mabu builds the internal strength, clears the meridians, fills the vessels, builds a connection to the earth, increases and corrects the chi flow, strengthens the yi, norishes the bones and kidneys.

 

It is a very good beginning practice.


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#203 Infolad1

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 06:59 AM

Just to add, there have been times when I've stood for up to 20 minutes, when you do feel the benefits, but currently I'm only standing for 5 mins. Initially I thought is it even worth it as the benefits are significantly less but they are there, it just takes much longer.

Miffymog, just do what you can do, the key is to do It consistently.

 

It's the same principle as progressive overload In resistance training.

 

You have to give the body (fascia, bone, etc.) time to adapt to the new stressor.

 

You have to give the lungs time to grow new capillaries, to allow for more blood, and Qi

to flow through them.

 

You have to give the mind time to settle down, to eventually get into a deep alpha brainwave state.

So you also need time to master the fundamentals of diaphragmatic breathing, in order to accomplish this.

 

Consistency, time, hard work, dedication. These are what make up Gong.

 

5 minutes a day of Ma Bu for 5 years, beats out an occasional 20 minute session every time.

 

"Little bit, little bit" is the rule.

 

Always start with a high stance. Only go lower as your kua (the Inguinal fold) open up.

 

And never allow your knees to go beyond your toes. It's a great way to damage your knees.

 

Give yourself 6 months of consistent practice to get to 15 minutes, a year to get to 30, add

an additional 15 minutes every 3 to 6 months.

 

When your body starts to tremble, allow It for a minute, then stop. You've reached your limit.

Use this marker to stay safe.

 

Using the above protocols learned from my Sifu, I've never had any issues, and neither have any of my students.

 

Congratulations on your progress Miffymog. Just keep on truckin' (OMG I just dated myself  :D )

 

Cheers!


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#204 soaring crane

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 07:36 AM

The correct practice of Ma Bu 

 

I have a question about that. Since you come from the Kung Fu world and have genuine knowledge about the correct practice, how would you rate the importance of keeping the feet parallel? I can hold a deep mabu for a good long time if my feet are turned outward, it's part of my Fanhuangong. But with the feet parallel, not so much.  It makes a huge difference in the level of effort, and I know that that isn't a personal indiosyncrasy of my own; it's pretty universal.

 

So, from the energetic standpoint, how much would you say the exercise it watered down by angling the feet outward?


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#205 flowing hands

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 08:05 AM

SC The feet are supposed to be parallel, but anatomically they are supposed to follow the knee alignment and turn out. But one practices with feet parallel for martial technique. After doing this for a long time the knee joint gets used to the awkward position. It is a misnomer about kung fu schools having to put their students through hours of pain standing in low horse stance, particularly through film, this image has been adopted. Horse stance is just a very basic stance, the ability to stand strongly and commit martial techniques comes from being able to lower ones centre of gravity and having very strong legs. Just doing the horse stance will only build the strength in one way. One can stand on one leg on ones tip toes and commit full power into a technique and into a hard object if the right practice has been done. The horse stance is not the best of martial stances to adopt, many people use it the wrong way and it is not easy to move quickly from this stance to another when vital milli-seconds  are vital to ones well being in a real fight.



#206 flowing hands

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 08:23 AM

Hi flying High

 

People can write what they like, it doesn't mean that they are right. For instance if I was to get a middle age man to do low, deep horse stance it may be very detrimental to his health. He may have medical problems that would be aggravated by doing this exercise. He may have a tendency to hypertension and the effort and tension in his muscles may raise his blood pressure beyond what would be acceptable. Some young people are also susceptible to this condition and others. When teaching (which I have done for many years) Qigong and martial art to various people one has a duty of care. Some exercise are suitable to some and not to others. One can't randomly teach people the same, the reason why most people want to learn qigong is to improve their health, it would be totally wrong of me as a teacher not to make careful note of each persons body and medical history and then teach them appropriately.

 

In the case of the middle aged hypertensive man, one would avoid teaching stances and techniques that would involve 'tension'. I would teach them relaxation and then exercises and techniques that would allow the blood and Qi to flow far more freely. Getting this person to hurt their legs and produce a lot of tension in their body by doing the horse stance for even 15 minutes would really not achieve anything. Especially only if its come from films of kung fu!


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#207 Chang

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 08:32 AM

I have a question about that. Since you come from the Kung Fu world and have genuine knowledge about the correct practice, how would you rate the importance of keeping the feet parallel? I can hold a deep mabu for a good long time if my feet are turned outward, it's part of my Fanhuangong. But with the feet parallel, not so much.  It makes a huge difference in the level of effort, and I know that that isn't a personal indiosyncrasy of my own; it's pretty universal.

 

So, from the energetic standpoint, how much would you say the exercise it watered down by angling the feet outward?

 

This is a very good and pertinent question.

 

The human body is all joined up and we cannot move one part of the body without it effecting the whole. The further away you move in the body from the initial movement the less the effect but some effect there still will be.

 

As regards the angle of the foot in MaBu that can be easily explained. The angle of the foot effects the way the femur sits in the pelvis. Place your hand roughly over where the femur joins the pelvis and swivel on your heel. You will feel all of the muscle changes beneath your hand, you will not feel the actual bone rotate in the joint but it is doing so.

 

I would argue that it is of paramount importance to keep the feet parallel in Ma Bu in both Kung Fu and Neigong. Not to do so will effect rooting and the opening of the kua.

 

It is all really down to how you assume the horse stance. If done correctly then there will be no strain on the joint and you will be able to stand for long periods in comfort. It is very difficult to explain in words but is down to the circling of the knee's out, around and back to finish over the body of the foot. This will have the effect of opening the kua (the right side of the pelvis spiralling  clockwise, the left side anti clockwise) at the same time the sacrum will sink, lengthening the spine and facilitating the operation of the sacral pump.

 

It goes beyond this however as once the stance is assumed you can further open the hip by reversing the spiralling action of the hip joint whilst maintaining the position of the knee's above the body of the foot.

 

From a kung fu standpoint this provides greater rooting (it takes a long time to explain in words what you do but once you have it you can assume the posture instantaneously) From a neigong standpoint it effects the flow of energy from the legs through the pelvis and into the microcosmic orbit.

 

Those who perform standing practice can increase the efficiency of their posture tenfold by the use of the correct posture - it really is of the utmost importance and is one of the secrets of opening the energy gates of the body.

 

I practiced zhang zhuang for years but it is really only in the last few that I have unlocked the secrets of using stance and posture correctly. Everything should be expansive with the ligaments coming gently under tension as the joints seperate.

 

I hope that this is of some help.


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Myself when young did eagerly frequent doctor and saint,
and heard great argument about it and about:
but evermore came out by the same door as in I went.
Omar Khayyam

#208 Infolad1

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Posted 29 November 2015 - 08:41 AM

Are you talking about a low mabu horse stance here or the normally more upright zhanzhuang?

 

What do people think is the main difference between mabu and zhanzhuang?

Greetings flyinghigh.

 

As I said to Miffymog, you start with a high stance, and naturally build to a lower stance.

 

You have to give the body time to adapt.

 

It's why In our system we teach Yang style first (higher stance).

 

After 3 years or so, now you have a strength base by which to now do Chen style

without Injury, and with power. (lower stance)

 

A couple of years after that, then you learn Bajiquan (lowest stance).

 

From my experience, Ma Bu, Zhan Zhuang, and Wuji are all the same thing. 

Standing at stake, pole standing, etc. Just different names discussing different

facets of the same practice.

 

I'll reply as I can today. I've got to teach a Qigong seminar this afternoon, so I've got to prep for that.

 

Cheers!


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