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5 道德 Daode The virtue of the Way


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#1 Taoist Texts

Taoist Texts

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Posted 04 January 2015 - 02:37 AM

19 道德:     

老子曰:夫亟戰而數勝者,即國亡,亟戰即民罷,數勝即主驕,以驕主使罷民,而國不亡者即寡矣。主驕即恣,恣即極物,民罷即怨,怨即極慮,上下俱極而不亡者,未之有也。故「功遂身退,天之道也。」

 

Lao-zi said:

 

if the war is waged often and the victories are numerous then the kingdom will perish; for the frequent wars inure your people, repeated victories lead to your overconfidence, an overconfident king evermore inures his people, and for such a kingdom not to perish is a rarity.

Overconfidence leads to hubris, hubris strain the things to the utmost, the inured people become restless, people being restless leads to the utmost trouble, and for the above and the below to be strained to their utmost and not to perish, there is no such thing.

 

That’s what it means: the victory accomplished to restrain from more wars, that’s the will of the Heaven.


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#2 nestentrie

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 12:07 AM

Is this about greed then? ...rather than pride? Or is it greed first then pride? I would see this situation as more disgusting than lamentable. Foolhardiness - on the other hand of both of these - is about opportunity, not necessarily forbidding competing forces an edge in.

 

67

All the world says that, while my Tao is great, it yet appears
to be inferior (to other systems of teaching). Now it is just its
greatness that makes it seem to be inferior. If it were like any
other (system), for long would its smallness have been known!

But I have three precious things which I prize and hold fast. The
first is gentleness; the second is economy; and the third is shrinking
from taking precedence of others.

With that gentleness I can be bold; with that economy I can be
liberal; shrinking from taking precedence of others, I can become a
vessel of the highest honour. Now-a-days they give up gentleness and
are all for being bold; economy, and are all for being liberal; the
hindmost place, and seek only to be foremost;--(of all which the end
is) death.

Gentleness is sure to be victorious even in battle, and firmly to
maintain its ground. Heaven will save its possessor, by his (very)
gentleness protecting him.



#3 dust

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Posted 15 January 2015 - 04:51 AM

Good translation.

 

I'm not usually convinced that what Wenzi says in reference to Laozi actually has anything to do with what is being talked about in the Laozi chapter itself.. and this is no exception. Chapter 9 makes no mention of war, and I feel is one of those chapters offering a more general piece of advice... but what is said in this Wenzi chapter makes sense in itself, so... doesn't really matter, does it?

 

 

 

Is this about greed then? ...rather than pride? Or is it greed first then pride? I would see this situation as more disgusting than lamentable. Foolhardiness - on the other hand of both of these - is about opportunity, not necessarily forbidding competing forces an edge in.

 

Could be as a result of pride, greed, attachment to an ideal, or whatever... there are many reasons people go to war and almost none of them are acceptable. Modern leaders could take note.


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