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Does Dan Tien translate as 'belly'?


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#17 Andrei

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:16 AM

I think Yesod is lower dantien, Tiphareth is middle dantien and Daath is upper dantien. Malkuth is either the feet or the hui yin depending on if you stand or sit. Kether is above the head. But still i think the Sephiroth is corresponding to a different level of reality, or different dimension. If you are familiar with teosophical literature, they say that between physical world and spiritual world (and by spiritual I mean higher spiritual not the world of ghosts, spirits and daemons whatever that may mean) there are at least 3 other levels or dimensions or densities. First is Etheric plane, which corresponds to the hidden energies of nature, elementals and other beings. At this level alchemy operates with the elements, you build dantients and cook elixirs and do a lot of magic. Then over this level is the Astral when you build a second body and exit from the physical body and you fly on a broom or a carpet or a fire wheel or whatever and visit the astral worlds, and speak with ancestors and ascended masters, aliens and what not. Then above or beyond this level si the Mental plane and I believe this plane corresponds to the sephiroth (or qilipoth if you prefer that route) which ultimately leads you to Kether which is you Higher Self. This is how I see it.


Later edit to add the image

adam-kadmon.jpg

Edited by Andrei, 17 April 2014 - 06:08 AM.

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#18 traveler

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 07:57 AM

Cycles within cycles. Each time the work is "complete" the results are planted back in the earth to grow into the next cycle.

 

Quote Andrei: Once you obtain the Golden pill or the Pill of Immortality you put it back in the Earth, you sow it and then at the next lunar cycle you reap more, because the substances multiply.

 

I like your way of putting this a lot.

 

There is a key to being immortal and it is Love, an open heart, a heart full of God. But there is more. Love begets Love, and each turn of the cycle brings a deeper Love than before, a stronger and truer vibration of that Universal Power. (unnamed)

 

Is there an end to the creative cycles? I am beginning to think not. Where can I read more about this Cinnabar-mercury-silver-gold explanation?

 

Andrei said: You can do that only at the tzu hour because only at that hour the fluid of the heart is exiting and flowing through the channels like a dragon exits its cave and flies through clouds.

 

Please explain the discrepancy that the heart meridian is active around noon, and the gall bladder meridian is the one active near midnight. I know you will have a good explanation. I feel that the heart is the key and so your statement makes perfect sense to me, except that the heart meridian is active at the opposite end of the day, around noon.


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#19 Zhongyongdaoist

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:53 AM

But still i think the Sephiroth is corresponding to a different level of reality, or different dimension.


I agree with this. Modern Western occultists have a tendency to try to find everything on the Tree of Life, part of the impoverishment of the system which has taken place since the Nineteenth Century. The most useful Western system in this case is Geomancy which has a lot of interesting correlations and I have used as a cross cultural bridge for decades. People have the potential for many types of bodies that instantiate different cosmological systems. I don't have much time to post on this right now, but will later if I can.
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Donald
aka Zhongyongdaoist


'It is better for us that there should be difference of judgment, if we keep charity: but it is most unmanly to quarrel because we differ'

'Nothing spoils human Nature more, than false Zeal ... because I may be Mistaken, I must not be dogmatical and confident, peremptory and imperious. I will not break the certain Laws of Charity, for a doubtful Doctrine or of uncertain Truth'

'... I oppose not rational to spiritual; for spiritual is most rational: But I contradistinquish rational to conceited, impotent , affected CANTING ...'

All by Benjamin Whichcote, 17th Century English Theologian, quoted from Ernst Cassirer's The Platonic Renaissance in England, a much neglected book of Wisdom.

All of that said it remains true that:

Only the man of virtue knows whom to love and whom to hate. Confucius, Analects 4.3

#20 Andrei

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 08:50 PM

Hi traveler,

The alchemical language is highly symbolic, so you really need to stretch the reasoning to connect ideas. But if you really want to dive in the alchemical literature here are some free resources:

http://wangfengyi.fi...neichingtu1.pdf
http://www.charlesch...-BurtonRose.pdf

Understanding reality (wu zhen pian) by Chang Po-tuan translated by Thomas Cleary

Also books by Eva Wong:

Nourishing the essence of life - the outer, inner and secret teachings of Taoism
Cultivating stillness - a Taoist manual for transforming body and mind
Cultivating the energy of life (Hui Ming Ching)
The Tao of Health, Longevity and Immortality - the teachings of immortals Chung and Lu

And Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu which contains three important texts:
Zhong Lu Delivery Tao series
The secret of the Golden Flower
Wu Pian Ling Wen - five Soul articles

Edited by Andrei, 14 April 2014 - 08:50 PM.

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#21 traveler

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 09:10 PM

Thanks for the book list. Much appreciated. What I am really interested in is what you said about the tzu hour. Is it the heart meridian or the gall bladder meridian that is being targeted by running the fourfold orbit in the tzu hour? My intuition tells me it is the heart's true fire that is being awakened.


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#22 Andrei

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Posted 14 April 2014 - 09:45 PM

Please explain the discrepancy that the heart meridian is active around noon, and the gall bladder meridian is the one active near midnight. I know you will have a good explanation. I feel that the heart is the key and so your statement makes perfect sense to me, except that the heart meridian is active at the opposite end of the day, around noon.


I was amazed too by this question, because the alchemical texts are a quite contradictory. I could not understand this because we try to make sense with our ordinary mind. The ordinary mind sees only one reality when in the " reality " there are other realities overlapped on this reality. Unfortunately we don't see this overlap between worlds, but if you believe many mystics from various traditions, these other realities are as real as this one. Now, this sounds like a disclaimer, and I read a lot of books and I tried to make a sense out of them, and always I had some skepticism about what people describe as "real". But when i asked one of my best friends who is clairvoyant what he sees this is what I get as an answer: "I see a fluid that is coming out of the heart that flows through meridians and tissues. It looks like a silvery fluid and has a violet hue. - Is this the Qi from the heart? I think so... It exits from the heart and is flowing all the time. What does this Qi at noon? - it is more intense. - what does it at night? It is still flowing but not so intense and has a different path. - what kind of path? - at noon goes up, to the head mostly but at night goes down towards the earth. - Ok, this must be what they call "mercury", it is flowing, it is metallic and shiny it can't be anything else. But what about the heart color? - it has the same color as you know. - what color? - it is red. - but the heart chakra is green. - it is also green but in another layer. And it is bluish-white shiny in a more profound layer. - so it has all those colors? - yes but on different layers. What about the kidneys? Kidneys have the colors as you know, they are blue in one layer and red-brownish in another layer. What about the fluid? Is there a fluid that exits the kidneys? - Yes it is, but is not like a fluid is more like a smoke, a grey-dark smoke. - Ok so how this smoke circulates? It circulates also through tissues and channels but on different paths than the fluid from the heart. During the day the smoke goes down and exits through bottom and feet and sinks into earth. - what about during the night? - during the night goes up towards the head. - ok so when is more intense this smoke? - it is during the night more intense, especially at midnight. - ok, i think this is what they call "lead". In the texts they say that mercury is not Li fire from the heart, is the essence of the heart, and lead is not Kan water of the kidneys, is the essence of the kidneys. Also they say that mercury and lead are called tiger and dragon which copulates only at midnight. They say that the tiger is not the Qi of the lung, is the essence of Kan, and the dragon is not the Qi of liver, is the essence of heart. So I think that these two energies merge together at midnight because the one from the heart descends and the one from the kidneys ascends naturally, but what does make them to move? Why they go up during the day and down during night? Then it struck me! Because these energies are moved by the Sun! Because they say in texts Yang ascends to Heaven and Yin descends to the Earth. Actually is the Sun who attracts the yang fluid and is repulsing the yin smoke. And only during the night when the Sun is on the other side of the Earth attracts the yang fluid down, and repels the yin smoke up. And this is why you have to sit at midnight so that these two energies mix together. This is what they call Kan and Li, and copulation of Dragon and Tiger.
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#23 traveler

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 06:44 AM

I agree with your explanation. It makes sense and it feels right intuitively. Eric Yudelove describes ascending jing as smoke-like. I can't recall where I read this next bit, but the ascending earth and descending heavenly energies were described as meeting in the body at different points, depending on where the work is needed. In relation to our discussion of the tzu hour, this would indicate different times of the night for this meeting which would activate a healing in the meridian that is moving at the time. There is a paragraph in Taoist Yoga which gives a clue, perhaps. Here it is:

 

When the penis stands during sleep at night this moment is called the hour tsu and then it is most important to stop all thoughts while gathering (ts'ai ch'u) the generative force (for sublimation). The gathering method differs with the age of each individual. [Footnote: According to the ancients the first half of the day is positive and the second half is negative. The first half begins at the hour tsu (between 11 p.m. and 1 a.m.) when the penis stands of itself during sleep in spite of the absence of thoughts and dreams. At the start of Tao practice, it is important to avail oneself of this moment when the penis stands to gather the generative force for sublimation, for the gathering of it during the negative half of the day is ineffective.] (Taoist Yoga, 2.10, by Charles Luk)

 

 

I wish I could read and understand the original in Chinese. But, the English translation here indicates that the tzu hour begins when the penis stands without provocation. "When the penis stands during sleep at night this moment is called the hour tsu ..." If it stands at 6:00 AM one morning during the time when the stomach meridian is active, then at that moment the energies of earth and heaven are meeting there for rejuvenation. Quote: "It is important to avail oneself of this moment when the penis stands to gather the generative force for sublimation, for the gathering of it during the negative half of the day is ineffective." This indicates that the moment for sublimation is anytime during the positive half of the day. Since the moment for sublimation is named as the tzu hour, this suggests that the penis may become stiff any time during the first half of the day and that this is the correct time for sublimation that day.

 

I could be wrong, which is most likely when butting up against traditional interpretations of this stuff, but my experience shows me that if I am being celibate, my penis gets stiff without provocation in the morning at various times, different each day. I run the orbit about nine times and it retracts. The time this occurs is the correct moment for sublimation that day.

 

This idea is what your post #10 awoke in me. And I got excited because I thought I was seeing some light shed on this subject of the tzu hour.


Edited by traveler, 15 April 2014 - 06:46 AM.

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#24 GrandmasterP

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:29 AM

Steady on lads.
All I asked was if Dan Tien might translate as 'belly' if only colloquially.
Seems like it might do, someplaces, sometimes.
Job jobbed.
Where does Kabalism and Theosophy come into it apart from north of the neck of anyone who chooses it to do so?
By the same abstract extrapolation I could posit...
Dan Tien
Implies
Belly
Implies
Dinner
Therefore
Dan Tien means 'dinner'.

It doesn't, anymore than Kabalism equates with anything beyond its own self- referential parameters.
Take your pick on Kabalism...
https://www.google.c...iw=1024&bih=644


Everyone else and his mystical dog seems to have done so.

Edited by GrandmasterP, 16 April 2014 - 07:31 AM.

Chinese Health QiGong Association here...
http://jsqg.sport.org.cn/en/
More about Mindfulness here...
http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
( Dogen).

#25 Andrei

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:02 AM

Nope.
Dantien
Implies
Belly
Implies
Pregnancy
Implies
Birth
Implies
Life
Implies
No death
Implies
Immortality
Implies
Ethernal life
Implies
I am the truth and the way and the life
:)
But yes dinner implies life too

Edited by Andrei, 17 April 2014 - 06:03 AM.

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#26 GrandmasterP

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 07:34 AM

It does indeed.
No dinner.
No life.

We're having Tofu balls in tomato n leek sauce this evening.
Choc Ice for pudding.
Yum.

:-)

Edited by GrandmasterP, 17 April 2014 - 07:36 AM.

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http://jsqg.sport.org.cn/en/
More about Mindfulness here...
http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
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#27 dawei

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Posted 19 April 2014 - 10:36 AM

All I asked was if Dan Tien might translate as 'belly' if only colloquially.

 

Yes, chinese can/do refer to the dan tian as a reference to the belly [area].   


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#28 Bearded Dragon

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:35 PM

Try putting dantien (丹田) into google translate and see what you get :).


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#29 MooNiNite

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 10:34 AM

Nope.
Dan means cinnabar. And Tian means field, like an agricultural field where you sow and reap.
Both words have metaphorical meaning.
the cinnabar is a red substance which is found in the earth, and by cooking into a metallurgical cauldron you obtain mercury.
Then by cooking mercury in the next cauldron you obtain silver and finally the golden pill or the golden pearl.
Each transformation is done in a different Dan Tian, because there are three Dan Tian-s in each you do a different transformation.
The first transformation is done in the belly because cinnabar comes from earth, and the earth is the metaphor for stomach and guts.
In the guts you naturally produce serotonin by eating tryptophan. If you heat the guts with your breathing the serotonin is "cooked".
This is the first transformation which is collecting the cinnabar. Then you have to mix the cinnabar with the electromagnetic fluid of heart, which is like a fluid metal and by mixing with the serotonin you cook the mercury. You can do that only at the tzu hour because only at that hour the fluid of the heart is exiting and flowing through the channels like a dragon exits its cave and flies through clouds. By mixing with the electromagnetic fluid of the heart the serotonin becomes ionized and permeates the blood-brain barrier and enters the cerebrospinal fluid, and from there floods the pineal gland where is the third Dan Tian where is supposed to convert into melatonin and DMT and other hormones like G rowth hormones in the pituitary and many others. These hormones have immense healing power and they are the elixir of immortality. Melatonin is the most potent antioxidant in the body, together with GH rejuvenates all the tissues, and you look younger. Once you obtain the Golden pill or the Pill of Immortality you put it back in the Earth, you sow it and then at the next lunar cycle you reap more, because the substances multiply. This is obtaining the first level of immortality which is Earth immortal.

nice. 
I was thinking this was higher than earth immortal?

but i guess it corresponds with "the wine of long life"


Edited by MooNiNite, 05 June 2014 - 10:40 AM.

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I am the light I see in others.

I am the sun so high above.

I am the sky rich with color.

I am the roots of the earth.


#30 allinone

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 11:46 AM

if someone have had lucid dream then to open LD(lower dantien) should not be so hard. The diffrence is that when you enter LD then its not permanent or feeling that something is still missing, that you are still not close enough to reality feeling(same feeling you have in lucid dreams). So you try and try getting into that reality(LD already open), some nonordinary experiences and then one day you see the "pill", you digest it and then you need to come "out of the cell" by leaving the old way of being and entering new way first time(it feels good). You now are same like you are in lucid dreams but the power is still weak.

 

in lucid dream our experience field is whole, it can be replicated in this waking world too, but the intensity is much weaker here.

 

Comparing lucid dream with this reality is enough to succesful alchemy.

Also kundalini is the same thing, left and right channels are left and right brain and same yin and yang and you can hold them and make them react, but its at the beginning automatic, trying to just image what its like to be whole and make it seriously really happen in live and your LD opens automatically.

 

Leaving out the details and trying to sense the hidden, unmanifested aspect. If you compare lucid dream and real life then will understand what its meant by these words. Dream and waking life just seem different at the beginning. Trying to find whats different and then trying to eradicate the difference by entering what is correct. This is the sense of "i am" its obvious in lucid dreams but not so obvious in waking life.


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#31 Andrei

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Posted 05 June 2014 - 04:43 PM

Higher than earth immortals that can live indefinitely on earth are ghost immortals (spirits that does not incarnate but are earth-bound) but actually this is not considered higher, because they are kind of stuck in the hungry ghost realm. Then higher than that are spirit immortals which are the astral travelling ones, or OBE/lucid dreaming whatever you may want to call it, but not everyone that is lucid dreaming is an immortal, only those that can do it consciously and can prepare for the next world or that can choose consciously their next world to live in without returning on earth. And above them are the Celestial immortals.



#32 GrandmasterP

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 07:05 AM

These 'hungry ghosts' then.
Why 'hungry' : how 'ghosts'?
Might we not be in danger of falling into cultural- linguistic labelling here?

Edited by GrandmasterP, 06 June 2014 - 07:08 AM.

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