It seems that CN Norbu's latest book called "The Marvelous Primordial State" contains a quote from Ramana Maharashi, and the Dzogchen community over at VajraCackra are objecting, especially Malcolm, who runs that forum.
Here is the quote:
"The ego or seperate soul-self is a concept.
God, the world, the mind, desires, action, sorrow,
and all other things are all concepts.......
There is nothing whatsoever except concepts.......
The mind is unreal, a magic show, absolutely non-existent....
Abiding without concepts is the undifferentiated state.....
the Reality of the Supreme Absolute Being."
Sri Ramana Maharshi
And here is what Malcolm is saying:
Definitely not Dzogchen.
Clemente is a huge fan of Ramana Maharshi. He went visited Ramana's place maybe two years ago.
No, it seems that Adriano is inclined towards eternalism.
Terms like "supreme absolute being" have no place in Dzogchen language. It is an unfortunate choice that Clemente chose to use that. It will contribute to people's misunderstandings, such as yours, for decades.
A quote of Ramana Maharshi is inappropriate on a book of Dzogchen. No matter how apropos it might have seemed to the translators and editors.
No, there is no room for Ramana Maharshi in Dzogchen thought. Ramana Maharshi is not a Dzogchen master.
It is an error to put that citation there.
Then Malcolm claims that there is no "abiding" in Dzogchen and proceeds to pick apart the subtlest distinctions in the term "abiding" despite the fact that many Buddhist writings use the terminology "abiding in Rigpa". See for yourself:
Anyway, I find some truth with "FlyBoy216's comment on page 8 of the thread:
And, ya know, the interpretations of some of ChNN's most senior students. In any case my point was that it's easy but foolish for *us* to pick apart the realization of another (RM no less!) based on a few words. Especially words that we ourselves sometimes use.
If I didn't know any better I'd come in here and think our gurus have told us "clutch onto words as hard as you can and use them to judge the realizations of heathens!" If the Sakyamuni himself appeared we'd find a way to discredit his words.
In a way, it is ludicrous that Malcolm claims that Ramana Maharshi was not a Dzogchen master, because, unless a person is themselves at the level of Ramana Maharshi, he has no basis with which to pass judgment, and I seriously doubt that Malcolm has realized half of what Ramana realized (see- I can play that game too, who am I to assess Malcolm's realization?). And who says that in order to be a Dzogchen Master you have to write Dzogchen books or teach Dzogchen practices? Scholars judging practitioners and realized beings always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
If CN Norbu can publish books containing material which is not pure Dzogchen, and Malcolm blames the editors and translators for this faux pas, doesn't the book lose some credibility? I mean, didn't Norbu approve all the was written in the book? Didn't Norbu have final say? Didn't Norbu see the final copy? What else is there in that book that was not approved by Norbu?
Edited by Tibetan_Ice, 28 September 2013 - 09:43 PM.