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Rotating the Lower Dan Tien


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#65 allinone

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 07:26 AM

your stomach naturally "spins" after having a good meal, being not angry and disturbed. Its called letting bread into a bones time.

 

otherwords maybe, internal organs communicates with bonemarrow.



#66 orshavskiy@inbox.ru

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Posted 13 March 2017 - 02:56 AM

From my point of view its better to avoid all manipulations with mind in attempts to do smth with Dan tians. The reason is very simple - our mind can produce only a vision of smth happening when it doesn't. So it can turn us to illusions of the results and deviations difficult to correct further.
Rgrds, Ilya
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#67 Rocky Lionmouth

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 06:53 PM

Hi again DSCB57, you asked whether your practice is the same to what I practised. The dai-mai horizontal rotation: the internal qi movement initiates the physical movement of the form. Whereas the qi in the frontal internal abdominal rotation is initiated by external massage in one form, and by qi on a vertical plane on a front-to-back excluding the massage as in the LDT rotation, in another. The LDT rotation that I do, do not activate the huiyin nor baihui, and (but) allows the energy to radiates from LDT to the rest of the body, and after a while, from there to fully initiates the RAB with MCO. It will take a few years of consistent effort for the practitioner to rotate  LDT involuntarily like what you have accomplished while many of us are still doing it consciously and with mental focus. About jumping forward, is this good or bad? Some qigong masters are happy about it, but some don't. The argument against the spring action is either that the student has not harnest the external energy, and not rooted sufficiently to bring it in to the body, or there is a strong leak of energy to the ground. This is the same argument against students swaying in a zhanzhuang posture (but in this case, its the qi-leaking to the environment and the qi is not stable). Perhaps, practitioners of Spontaneous Qigong systems can bring in their insights on this phenomenon.


You mention swaying in zhan zhuang as qi-leaking to the environment, but it is still related to motion in the LDT?
What about exercises that make use of gentle swaying? Do they have a place in this topic or am i mixing things up? :)
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#68 Sudhamma

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Posted 14 March 2017 - 07:32 PM

Hi Rocky Lionmouth, the swaying motion during zhanzhuang has nothing to do with rotating LDT. Its my observation of various systems, like Taiji-zhanzhuang and Xing-I zhanzhuang. Exercises that requires swaying as part of the motion exercise for joints and sinews is perfectly alright, like Huichoongong for instance. I've not seen zhanzhuang with instructions to sway the body. Even the One Finger Zen, Iizichangong, swaying is not part of the routine. Wei-dan gong on the other hand requires vibrating and shooking the body and limbs. So, swaying is accepted if it is part of the system. 


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#69 Mudfoot

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:14 AM

Even the One Finger Zen, Iizichangong, swaying is not part of the routine.

In this system, the swaying happens when you open up some of the channels, and stops when they are more open.
But you can get addicted to the Swaying, in which case it will continue.

In my experience, this hinders further development.

#70 Sudhamma

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 07:07 PM

Hi Mudfoot, with proper rooting and focus, the swaying in practising iizichangong should stop, but some instructors either do not know how to assist the student (to stop) or encourage the swaying (as a manifestation of qi!). In my early days in qigong, I had put in some time into this system, and my classmates who swayed were more susceptible to fevers and colds. Actually instead of getting healthier, they became weaker. 



#71 Mudfoot

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 10:17 PM

Now this thread is moving into a parallel topic, the pros and cons of spontaneous movements. There is an active thread about that. But sure, some have good experiences with it and some have not so good.

#72 Sudhamma

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Posted 16 March 2017 - 11:51 PM

Agreed. We will stop this digression and get back to the intent of the OP.



#73 DSCB57

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 03:09 PM

Hi again DSCB57, you asked whether your practice is the same to what I practised. The dai-mai horizontal rotation: the internal qi movement initiates the physical movement of the form. Whereas the qi in the frontal internal abdominal rotation is initiated by external massage in one form, and by qi on a vertical plane on a front-to-back excluding the massage as in the LDT rotation, in another. The LDT rotation that I do, do not activate the huiyin nor baihui, and (but) allows the energy to radiates from LDT to the rest of the body, and after a while, from there to fully initiates the RAB with MCO. It will take a few years of consistent effort for the practitioner to rotate  LDT involuntarily like what you have accomplished while many of us are still doing it consciously and with mental focus. About jumping forward, is this good or bad? Some qigong masters are happy about it, but some don't. The argument against the spring action is either that the student has not harnest the external energy, and not rooted sufficiently to bring it in to the body, or there is a strong leak of energy to the ground. This is the same argument against students swaying in a zhanzhuang posture (but in this case, its the qi-leaking to the environment and the qi is not stable). Perhaps, practitioners of Spontaneous Qigong systems can bring in their insights on this phenomenon.

Thank you Sudhamma, and my apologies for my absence. I have practised spontaneous movement Qigong, but to be honest I am a little confused as to the correct name for the form. The instructor who taught it to me has since changed his name and become an authorized Shaolin healing monk - using the same system he taught me. He called it 'The Golden Tablets 5 Elements Qigong'. He used to first draw the Qi in through the Baihui, then enter the state in which he could then 'charge up' his students either to heal them or assist in their MA practice. He was a Steel Wire Praying Mantis master, but apparently he was taught this technique by a grateful Sifu to whom he had lent his Temple school free of charge sometimes at the weekend when he wasn't using the facilities. In fact I had just wandered into the temple one day in order to watch how they trained. When he started 'charging up' his students, I received the energy, and when I returned home I found that I spontaneously entered into each of the 5 animals. When I told the Sifu what I had experienced the next day, he said we should see how I reacted when he actually charged me up. He was very surprised when once again I went through all five of the animals almost immediately - apparently this was unheard of, as it normally takes months or even years to get beyond the physical manifestation phase. After that he accepted me as an honorary student, although I did very little training alongside his students, other than assisting in 'charging them up' before they began their Gongfu training. But I disliked the fact that the energy would affect people around me, even involuntarily.

At the time I was involved with Reiki and was working with quite a few sick people. I found that I could not avoid this energy entering them and activating them when they were supposed to be receiving a Reiki treatment. I realized that I was not able to fully close myself down once having opened myself up to the energy, and did not feel in control of it. In the temple I was able to charge up the other students just by being close to them, and I began to have serious doubts about the true source of the energy. So I stopped the practice. I should mention that there is another reason why I do not trust the energy. In 1987 I was a visit to Nam Yang Pugilistic Association in Singapore as part of a visiting team representing the UK in Shaolin forms competition. At one point, towards the end of the visit to Nam Yang a demonstration had been arranged by various other members of the Lion Dance association. One such demonstration involved a young bespectacled youth who we were told had never learned Gongfu. He knelt down and using his thumb began to massage his LDT (by the way is this what you meant by 'external massage'?). We were close enough to see his glasses misting up in the humidity and heat. After a while he began to move, but we could see that his eyes were closed. Following this we were witness to a display of the Five Animals that left all of us shaking. As he entered the state of each of the animals, his movements were accompanied by gutteral sounds which sounded so much like an animal that it sent shivers down our spines, especially when it came to the tiger and bear. I didn't understand at the time why following this, Master Tan Soh Tin grabbed hold of the young novice and severely reprimanded him for the demonstration. But when a few years later I was introduced to what I strongly suspect was the same energy, I realized why that young novice should probably not have demonstrated this Qigong in front of us. When moving through each of the animals the experience is extremely powerful, violent (aside from the deer, which is very gentle) and very frightening for the unprepared observer, especially back in 1987, when such things were unknown here in the western world.

So anyway, it's just possible that this was one of my previous cultivation experiences which may have prepared me for developing the LDT movements such as those I have been describing.

Just to touch on the subject of movements during Zhan Zhuang practice, I was remembering the first few years of my training with Kam Chuen Lam, and I do recall having great difficulty avoiding shaking all over until the Qi had begun to stabilize sufficiently. And I also recall that right at the beginning of our training we were taught to rock back and forth while in the Wuji posture (Wang Xiangzhai's version). This basically had the effect of massaging the Yongquan points of the feet, although Master Lam never fully explained why we should do this. But I could relate to this shifting of energy once I was in the 'holding the tree' posture, when a slight shift forward and backward of the hands either toward the body or away from it would cause one to be pushed forward or backward in the opposite direction to the movement - if that makes sense? No-one taught me to do that, I just used to feel tensions and releases and respond to them energetically. Master Lam said "I know what you're doing!". He didn't seem displeased, so I just continued experimenting.

To get back to the subject of LDT movement, the more it goes, the more I realize that the key seems to be to initiate the movement using the eyes (physically rotating them). Being a physical movement it seems easier than trying to rely on the Yi to initiate the movement of the Qi in the dantiens. For some reason there seems to be an energetic link between the eyes and the LDT (well, actually even more so with the UDT, being so physically close to it). And I agree that the surrounding muscles seem to move along with the circulating Qi, in fact it is almost unavoidable, although with a great deal of concentration I can. In fact watching my own abdomen I am reminded of the way Yogis move the muscles of the lower abdomen. It looks and probably feels similar.



#74 Sudhamma

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:17 PM

Thank you for responding.

 

Nam Yang Pugilistic Association was the representative of Fukien Shaolin Temple and Abbot Ven. Gao Cang was responsible to bring the Fukien Shaolin martial arts to Singapore in the early 1930s. By 1987, Ven. Gao Cang had passed away, that year I started serious Qigong training, Baqua Roushenggong from the Gong Bao Tien-Wang Han Zi lineage.  Spontaneous Qigong or Zifa-gong is a generic classification and there are many schools/styles that are under it. My sisiong, elder classmate, used to show us his zifagong which was the 5-animals qigong, not the one that was attributed to Watuo, that great Chinese physician of the 3-kingdoms fame. No animal sounds from him. Seems that zifagong has no fixed routines and depends on the physical condition of the trainee. I'm not familiar with zifagong.

 

Abdominal massage in Qigong is normally a standard exercise amongst Daoist systems. What is seldom taught to students is that when both hands are massaging the abdomen in a circular fashion, the internal qi should follow the direction of the hands. That is one technique that qi is led physically. In another technique, there is no massage, but the qi in the abdomen rotates from back to down the front towards the LDT during RAB MCO. The abdomen is pulled inwards, up, forward, and downwards, the qi is rotating on the vertical plane within the abdomen. That is qi leading the abdominal muscles. Both techniques are in the Baqua roushenggong system. You are right about the similarity with yoga when you mentioned about the yogis doing their abdominal rotation.

 

Animal sounds: The Fukien White Crane MA systems require the students to make sounds, in the baquazhang Tiger system of Wang Zhuangfei (father of Wang Hanzi), the student should roar everytime the claw technique is executed. Same with Hung-gar Tiger fists. In our qigong system which requires the student to close his mouth and place his tip of the tougue against the upper palate, no sound can be made! We have to contain the flow of heavenly dew.



#75 Sudhamma

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:38 PM

Rocking the feet fore and aft during zhanzhuang: there are many versions and styles of zhangzhuang. I practise only the taiji-zhanzhuang without the rocking. Therefore I can't comment whether it is right or not to rock in your system. The old style of forward-backward Swinging hands require the rocking motion to train the leg muscles. In this swing-hands, practitioners normally asked whether it was correct to experience hot sensation at the feet. In my San Pan Gong, the first movement requires gyrating the body together with the feet like a S-like movement. The feet is not firmly on the ground, but move from side-to-toes-to-side-to-heel.

 

Since your teacher said that he knew what you were doing, did you actually know what and why you are rocking?

 

When qi is radiated out without being aware nor controlled, to my knowledge, this is qi-leaking and will affect those standing nearby whose qi is weaker. Those with weaker qi will start to sway.



#76 DSCB57

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:32 PM

Thank you for responding.

 

Nam Yang Pugilistic Association was the representative of Fukien Shaolin Temple and Abbot Ven. Gao Cang was responsible to bring the Fukien Shaolin martial arts to Singapore in the early 1930s. By 1987, Ven. Gao Cang had passed away, that year I started serious Qigong training, Baqua Roushenggong from the Gong Bao Tien-Wang Han Zi lineage.  Spontaneous Qigong or Zifa-gong is a generic classification and there are many schools/styles that are under it. My sisiong, elder classmate, used to show us his zifagong which was the 5-animals qigong, not the one that was attributed to Watuo, that great Chinese physician of the 3-kingdoms fame. No animal sounds from him. Seems that zifagong has no fixed routines and depends on the physical condition of the trainee. I'm not familiar with zifagong.

 

Abdominal massage in Qigong is normally a standard exercise amongst Daoist systems. What is seldom taught to students is that when both hands are massaging the abdomen in a circular fashion, the internal qi should follow the direction of the hands. That is one technique that qi is led physically. In another technique, there is no massage, but the qi in the abdomen rotates from back to down the front towards the LDT during RAB MCO. The abdomen is pulled inwards, up, forward, and downwards, the qi is rotating on the vertical plane within the abdomen. That is qi leading the abdominal muscles. Both techniques are in the Baqua roushenggong system. You are right about the similarity with yoga when you mentioned about the yogis doing their abdominal rotation.

 

Animal sounds: The Fukien White Crane MA systems require the students to make sounds, in the baquazhang Tiger system of Wang Zhuangfei (father of Wang Hanzi), the student should roar everytime the claw technique is executed. Same with Hung-gar Tiger fists. In our qigong system which requires the student to close his mouth and place his tip of the tougue against the upper palate, no sound can be made! We have to contain the flow of heavenly dew.

Sudhamma, I confess to feeling a little guilty about writing so much whilst unconsciously steering the thread off topic - my apologies to the OP. That was not my intention.

It sounds as though you know NYPA personally, are you in Singapore? When I was still part of the school the art was known as 'Tiger Crane Combination Kung Fu', and we also learned 'Sun and Frost White Crane' (Suann Yang?), which was one of the Shaolin forms I was in Singapore to demonstrate. I did not know then that it was actually Fukien White Crane, although some of the monks called it 'Eng Chun Pei Ho', which in another dialect would be Bai Hung? - my Chinese is very very very limited! So if I read behind the lines, are you saying that the spontaneous 5 animals form may have actually been a secret part of the Fukien White Crane art? Also, only Grand Master Ang Lian Huat was talked about - none of the previous lineage, so thank you for that information. The training in Singapore was far more enjoyable than the way we used to practice in the UK. For one thing far less stretching and warmups were necessary in the high humidity of Singapore, but also we were taught some really neat conditioning exercises (some of which I overdid to the point of my arms and legs being totally covered in bruises). But I was able to develop my tiger claws to a phenomenal extent through the use of some very basic equipment which we did not have back in the UK. But despite the fact that I understand that the forms/patterns are actually Qigong, the only standing we were ever taught was basic horse stance and monkey horse stance and many hours of crane stance. But absolutely no Zhan Zhuang! We were told that Sam Ch'ien was all that was necessary for iron shirt development.

Regarding the Qi following the movement of the hands around the LDT, this is definitely part of the Hunyuan 12 Qigong I mentioned, although I confess that I never understood why there were 36 Yang rotations and only 24 Yin...but I still think that combining that form with RAB was what began the movement of Qi in the LDT. But that is not massage - the hands do not touch the body. The actual Daoyin is integrated with the final part of the form.

I no longer practice any type of MCO. In my opinion the Zhan Zhuang practice when trained correctly naturally opens up the meridians and both the Microcosmic and Macrocosmic orbits open up as well. After my negative experiences with the MCO I wouldn't want to risk practising it incorrectly again.

Just to clarify the 5 animal/element system I described (not the NYPA version) - regarding the animal sounds, the way it was explained to me was through the relation between the 5 organs and the 5 animals, particularly the the Bear, Tiger and Monkey which produced these vocalisations in order to balance the internal organs. But when I experienced it, I also experienced the ferocity of each of the animals. In the case of the bird, it was an eagle, and my body was forced into a position I would not normally have been able to support, with both arms pulled right back behind me and my body bent over forwards with my head pulled up. The other thing that really amazed me was when the bear struck the stone floor, or smashed into the stone walls I felt no pain. And when several of us were in the Tiger phase, there were times when I seriously thought they (we) would attack one another because of the anger that was being released. But the movements eventually began to cause harm to my body because they were so violent, so I lost my trust in the experience and stopped opening myself up to the energy.



#77 DSCB57

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:48 PM

Rocking the feet fore and aft during zhanzhuang: there are many versions and styles of zhangzhuang. I practise only the taiji-zhanzhuang without the rocking. Therefore I can't comment whether it is right or not to rock in your system. The old style of forward-backward Swinging hands require the rocking motion to train the leg muscles. In this swing-hands, practitioners normally asked whether it was correct to experience hot sensation at the feet. In my San Pan Gong, the first movement requires gyrating the body together with the feet like a S-like movement. The feet is not firmly on the ground, but move from side-to-toes-to-side-to-heel.

 

Since your teacher said that he knew what you were doing, did you actually know what and why you are rocking?

 

When qi is radiated out without being aware nor controlled, to my knowledge, this is qi-leaking and will affect those standing nearby whose qi is weaker. Those with weaker qi will start to sway.

It was a long time ago, and I never really took it very seriously as we only practiced the rocking during the Wuji warmup, but I seem to remember being told that it affected the breathing so that we were learning how to breathe from the heel like the Taoist sages, and warned never to remain with the weight on the Yongquan points, otherwise the Qi would rise up to the head and become blocked. But I did not make myself clear - when Master Lam told me he knew what I was doing, he was talking about my opening and closing using the hands - not the rocking (although this flexing can cause that too)...

So when I was flexing my hands, yes I did understand the energetic effect, and I still practice that sometimes. I would describe it as the feeling of Peng Jin when you feel the pressure right into the hands and fingers - it feels full, during opening, then as you close, the pressure is released and feels empty. I also feel a cool breeze on my face during the opening (moving away from the body). There is also a connection with RAB when practising in that way - the Peng Jin opening coincides with the outbreath as the LDT pushes forwards. This is probably why this is also intrinsic to Fa Jin and trial of breath (in Yiquan, even though any RAB is involuntary).


Edited by DSCB57, 21 March 2017 - 01:57 PM.


#78 Sudhamma

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Posted Today, 12:03 AM

Allow me to share my thoughts on the opening and closing of hands (during your zhanzhuang): When opening the hands, breathe in, and closing, breathing out. When hands are opening, stretch the energy between the palms, when closing, compress the energy. Do not allow the energy to dissipate into the environment during closing of the palms.

 

Your training of Tiger and Crane Combination is Hung-gar in essence, as the founder GM Lam Sai Wing, nick-named Butcher Wing, was a student of the famed Wong Fei Hung. As to Eng Chun Pei Ho, I believe the Fujian pronunciation should something like, Eng Chun Pek Hok. Pek Hok in Mandarin is B'ai H'er. Eng Chun is a district in Fujian. Sam Chien is San Jeen in Japanese karate, and is used to tone the body, the ‘iron body’ that you said. This Sam Chien is a Nei-gong practice. In my early days, I thought nei-gong was later known as qigong in China as the government thought that the term nei-gong had superstitions bought forth by those wuxia stories. I hope ‘bums’ here can tell me that indeed, nei-gong is not qigong though there are over-lapping principles. That name Master Ang could be from the Dragon and Tiger Association, and was in the lime-light when he took the blow from Mohd Ali to his throat. The DTA teaches Wu Mei martial arts. Wu Mei was the teacher to Yim Wing Chun, the founder of the famous Wing Chun system.

 

I did not know about Fukien White Crane has that 'spontaneous' 5-animal set. My knowledge is still rudimentary.

Zhanzhuang is a term used by those in neijia practitioners. For martial artists, the traditional term is zhang mabu for the horse stance by Northern stylists, and by Southern stylists, the Hokein would call it J-bay, Cantonese, gart-ma.

 

If you want to train RAB till it is second nature, then train every minute of the day and when you are calm and peaceful, RAB will be involuntary. Try it.






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