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Gospel of Thomas

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#33 Apech

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 10:32 AM

Bump for Jesus 


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"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#34 Jeff

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 10:34 AM

Move on to 4 or give a little more time?



#35 Apech

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 10:40 AM

Move on to 4 or give a little more time?

 

I expected more discussion - but maybe move on.

 

 

4)   Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a

small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will

live. For many who are first will become last, and they will

become one and the same."

 

5)   Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which

is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing

hidden which will not become manifest."

 

6)   His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want

us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet

shall we observe?"

     Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,

for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing

hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain

without being uncovered."

 

 

 

 

Two together to ponder. three now - added another.


Edited by Apech, 26 September 2013 - 10:46 AM.

"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#36 Jeff

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 12:13 PM

Apech... Getting bored already... 3 at once... :)

 

 

4)   Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a

small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will

live. For many who are first will become last, and they will

become one and the same."

 

This one for me is pretty classic. A newborn child is free of mental attachments. The fact that the child is "seven days old" is to tie it deeply to the story of creation in Genesis. The seven day is the holy Sabbath (the day of repose) and focus on God. The passage finishes with reminding us that we are "one" in Christ.



5)   Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which

is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing

hidden which will not become manifest."

 

For an understanding of this one, it is helpful to turn to the gospel of John for help...

 

John 1:9-10

 

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 

In the above statement Thomas is talking about the light of the Holy Spirit that is found inside all of us. Earlier he told us to look inside ourselves and as you "look inside" it will become plain and light (or divinity) will become manifest.


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#37 Boy

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:39 PM

...


Edited by Boy, 03 November 2013 - 07:10 AM.

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#38 rainbowvein

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 04:41 PM

Hard boiled it's like this:
 
1. You’ll conquer time
2. and space 
3. by self knowledge alone.
4. You have this knowledge already.
5. See and
6. don't speak!

Less poetic, though. :)
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#39 Apech

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 11:35 PM

4)   Jesus said, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a

small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will

live. For many who are first will become last, and they will

become one and the same."

 

I am guessing that there is a Jewish tradition that somehow a human soul becomes established after seven days.  I just looked it up and circumcision (ouch) happens on the eighth day - so I think this why seven days is mentioned.  The 'place of life' is an interesting phrase.  Not quite sure what this is referring to but it sounds like a reference to a centre in the body - anyone know?  This passage echoes also the idea of 'alpha and omega' - the beginning and the end … and that they are one in God … that is life is a continuum and not a serial process.

 

5)   Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which

is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing

hidden which will not become manifest."

 

I think this discussion about understanding the hidden (i.e. the mysterious source) and the manifest 'that which is in your sight' should be natural territory for Taoist students.  I reminded of the famous quote by Wang Bi on the Laozi (TTC) -

"ah! It does nothing more than encourage growth at the branch tips by enhancing the roots"  … this is about the non-duality of 'the real' … whatever is seen comes from the unseen root and reflects it.

 

6)   His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want

us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet

shall we observe?"

     Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,

for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing

hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain

without being uncovered."

 

I included this passage because it reflects the previous two through the 'hidden and manifest' link.  Jesus is saying that it is not about outer practices or following rites and so on - it is about how you really are inside.  Don't lie or do what you hate - don't be false because falsity will be exposed - most importantly self consistency is the key … 


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"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#40 Jeff

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Posted 27 September 2013 - 07:05 AM


 

6)   His disciples questioned Him and said to Him, "Do you want

us to fast? How shall we pray? Shall we give alms? What diet

shall we observe?"

     Jesus said, "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,

for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing

hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain

without being uncovered."

 

I included this passage because it reflects the previous two through the 'hidden and manifest' link.  Jesus is saying that it is not about outer practices or following rites and so on - it is about how you really are inside.  Don't lie or do what you hate - don't be false because falsity will be exposed - most importantly self consistency is the key … 

 

I agree that this one is pretty simple, basically saying... Practice speaking the truth and treat others like yourself (don't hate).



#41 Apech

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 08:51 AM

Bump for Dao Ting Thomas

 

(more discussion please)


"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#42 Jeff

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:07 AM

Maybe that means that is time to move on to verse 7.  It will be interesting hear what people have to say about lions and men eating each other... 



#43 Apech

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:46 AM


 

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."


Edited by Apech, 30 September 2013 - 09:47 AM.

"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#44 Jetsun

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:50 AM

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

 

Interesting passage, perhaps it is about conquering your power and animal side. It is possible to become dominated by your animal instincts and anger and it can seem to take a life of its own and become very destructive, or it is possible to channel that energy and power towards productive aims and not allow it to control your life. 


Edited by Jetsun, 30 September 2013 - 10:51 AM.


#45 Jeff

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:57 AM

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

 

As Jetsun says, this passage is comparing our "human" self with our automatic animal like response side (ego).  So blessed is the animal that is consumed by (or becomes) the conscious and aware human man.  Cursed is human that slips back down into the automatic ego responses.

 

There is also a deeper esoteric meaning to this passage. When a master/guru shares presence or energy with a student there is an overlap. The clarity and energy field of a master often overwhelms (or consumes) the student and can sort of temporarily raise them or help them deal with issues.  Also, there is the corresponding concern that the master can also get caught up in the energy surrounding a big issue and sort of find that they get caught up in it themselves.



#46 Apech

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 04:18 AM

7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."

 

As Jetsun says, this passage is comparing our "human" self with our automatic animal like response side (ego).  So blessed is the animal that is consumed by (or becomes) the conscious and aware human man.  Cursed is human that slips back down into the automatic ego responses.

 

There is also a deeper esoteric meaning to this passage. When a master/guru shares presence or energy with a student there is an overlap. The clarity and energy field of a master often overwhelms (or consumes) the student and can sort of temporarily raise them or help them deal with issues.  Also, there is the corresponding concern that the master can also get caught up in the energy surrounding a big issue and sort of find that they get caught up in it themselves.

 

Not sure that lion = ego can you elaborate on that idea?

 

I was wondering about the four beasts which include a lion and a man ... but I haven't had tome to think deeply on this one. 


"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#47 Jeff

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Posted 02 October 2013 - 07:53 AM

Not sure that lion = ego can you elaborate on that idea?

 

I was wondering about the four beasts which include a lion and a man ... but I haven't had tome to think deeply on this one. 

 

Here are some quotes from the bible which elaborate on the point...

 

2 Timothy 4:17 - Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and [that] all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

 

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

Also, I think the symbolism is also covered well here in describing the association of the lion with more "bestial" side of humans. Talking about God in the following chapter...

 

Job 4:3-11

 

 

Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands.

Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.

But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.

Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways?

Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

10 The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken.

11 The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad.


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#48 Apech

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Posted 03 October 2013 - 03:36 AM

Here are some quotes from the bible which elaborate on the point...

 

2 Timothy 4:17 - Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and [that] all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.

 

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

Also, I think the symbolism is also covered well here in describing the association of the lion with more "bestial" side of humans. Talking about God in the following chapter...

 

Job 4:3-11

 

 

Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands.

Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.

But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.

Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways?

Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished, being innocent? or where were the righteous cut off?

Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same.

By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.

10 The roaring of the lion, and the voice of the fierce lion, and the teeth of the young lions, are broken.

11 The old lion perisheth for lack of prey, and the stout lion's whelps are scattered abroad.

 

Thank you for the extensive scriptural references.  I guess its a recurring Biblical theme to use lions as symbols of inimical power or activity - still don't quite get why this is 'ego' exactly but perhaps more like worldly drive or appetite.  The image of the Thomas quote reminds me of the Tarot card 'Strength' - which may have a connection perhaps.



Tally ho! from lions back to fish ....

 

 

8)   And He said, "The Kingdom is like a wise fisherman who cast

his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of small fish.

Among them the wise fisherman found a fine large fish. He threw

all the small fish back into the sea and chose the large fish

without difficulty. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."


"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 






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