Jump to content


Photo

Gospel of Thomas

Christain Gnostic

  • Please log in to reply
352 replies to this topic

#17 Jetsun

Jetsun

    Dao Bum

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 3954 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Reality

Posted 24 September 2013 - 02:07 PM

Interesting point... Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven... Does that mean on should relinquish or "align" with the natural state/order as in Heaven. Does one completely relinquish or go with the flow of Tao?

 

Yeah I think "thy will be done" is the same thing as going with the flow of Tao, yet there is a sort of paradox in that if you give up what you think is your individual will what you really give up is the conditioning and beliefs imposed upon you, and what you gain through submitting to God or Tao is will in line with the truth of your individual life and situation, whose power comes from being aligned with the flow of Tao or truth. So through submission you actually gain a more authentic individuality, its just not the individuality of your own choosing.

 

Back to Thomas, to "rule over the All" could be a strong way to describe being identified with the all, not everyone can become a ruler over the All in the sense of power like a king has over his subjects so he can't be talking about that sort of power over others otherwise what would happen if a whole load of people got the power to rule over the all? in that domain there can only be one king and in this quote what Jesus says seems to be a universal statement. 



#18 Apech

Apech

    Ghost Cat

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 11145 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Absent
  • Interests:Ancient Egypt, Hermeticism, Meditation, Buddhism other stuff

Posted 24 September 2013 - 02:10 PM

Yeah I think "thy will be done" is the same thing as going with the flow of Tao, yet there is a sort of paradox in that if you give up what you think is your individual will what you really give up is the conditioning and beliefs imposed upon you, and what you gain through submitting to God or Tao is will in line with the truth of your individual life and situation, whose power comes from being aligned with the flow of Tao or truth. So through submission you actually gain a more authentic individuality, its just not the individuality of your own choosing.

 

Back to Thomas, to "rule over the All" could be a strong way to describe being identified with the all, not everyone can become a ruler over the All in the sense of power like a king has over his subjects so he can't be talking about that sort of power over others otherwise what would happen if a whole load of people got the power to rule over the all? in that domain there can only be one king and in this quote what Jesus says seems to be a universal statement. 

 

Maybe in the infinity of the All there can be an infinite number of kings?????


"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#19 Jetsun

Jetsun

    Dao Bum

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 3954 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Reality

Posted 24 September 2013 - 02:30 PM

Maybe in the infinity of the All there can be an infinite number of kings?????

 

Maybe, but if the all is one being then there is only one king ruling over the all



#20 Jeff

Jeff

    Focused on the moment

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 2996 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 September 2013 - 05:17 PM

 
Maybe in the infinity of the All there can be an infinite number of kings?????


Or think about being created in the "image" of the father. What about self aware beings each being like a small (and obstructed) "copy" of God in God?

#21 Boy

Boy

    Gone

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 395 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Vedanta

Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:19 PM

...

Edited by Boy, 03 November 2013 - 07:10 AM.


#22 Apech

Apech

    Ghost Cat

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 11145 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Absent
  • Interests:Ancient Egypt, Hermeticism, Meditation, Buddhism other stuff

Posted 25 September 2013 - 12:57 AM

Maybe, but if the all is one being then there is only one king ruling over the all

 

Have you been reading Lord of the Rings :)



Or think about being created in the "image" of the father. What about self aware beings each being like a small (and obstructed) "copy" of God in God?

 

Or an infinite field of interconnecting/interpenetrating beings all reflecting the One by being one. 


  • cheya, Jetsun and Jeff said thanks for this

"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#23 Jeff

Jeff

    Focused on the moment

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 2996 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 September 2013 - 04:25 AM

 
 
Or an infinite field of interconnecting/interpenetrating beings all reflecting the One by being one. 


Nice. :)

Think we are ready to move on to verse 3?

#24 Apech

Apech

    Ghost Cat

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 11145 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Absent
  • Interests:Ancient Egypt, Hermeticism, Meditation, Buddhism other stuff

Posted 25 September 2013 - 05:11 AM

3)   Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is

in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they

say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and

you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living

Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty

and it is you who are that poverty."

 

Lots to think about here :)


"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#25 Brian

Brian

    He's a very naughty boy!

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 7617 posts
  • Gender:None Selected
  • Location:He's not here.

Posted 25 September 2013 - 05:38 AM

Free will is something I always used to believe in, yet it is confusing to me at the moment. In the Christian context the highest prayer is "thy will be done" so it is all about relinquishing your individual will, so we seem to have the ability to resist or submit to what life throws at us, but in resistance we always lose and suffer.. so it seems like we have the choice to suffer.

 

Or the choice to not suffer, depending upon your perspective...


  • Jeff said thanks for this
"Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow."

#26 Jeff

Jeff

    Focused on the moment

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 2996 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 September 2013 - 05:54 AM

 
Lots to think about here :)


What does the verse say to you?

#27 Brian

Brian

    He's a very naughty boy!

  • Steward+
  • Pip
  • 7617 posts
  • Gender:None Selected
  • Location:He's not here.

Posted 25 September 2013 - 06:04 AM

What does the verse say to you?

 

To me, it says that "there is that of God in all of us" (to borrow from the Quakers) and that self-discovery is the essential first step.  In the process of self-discovery, we will discover (I've become fond of the coined term "un-forget") that we are "beings of Light" (to borrow from Ya Mu) and that we are all messiahs (to borrow from Richard Bach).

 

"Heaven" is not a place but a state and we are already "there" if we just wake up (to borrow from Dorothy Gale...)


  • cheya, Mark Foote and Jeff said thanks for this
"Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow."

#28 Apech

Apech

    Ghost Cat

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 11145 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Absent
  • Interests:Ancient Egypt, Hermeticism, Meditation, Buddhism other stuff

Posted 25 September 2013 - 06:17 AM

What does the verse say to you?

 

Never did trust those birds and fishes.


  • Mark Foote and Brian said thanks for this

"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#29 rainbowvein

rainbowvein

    Dao Bum

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 5935 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:north
  • Interests:big dipper,
    little dipper, penguins,
    Tao, spiritual diamonds,
    pom poms

Posted 25 September 2013 - 06:57 AM

Never did trust those birds and fishes.

Then, what/whom do you trust?



#30 Jeff

Jeff

    Focused on the moment

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 2996 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 September 2013 - 07:11 AM

3)   Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is

in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they

say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and

you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living

Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty

and it is you who are that poverty."

 

For me, this verse is a very powerful statement to the Jewish people of the time and also the institutional Christian concepts that are often currently taught. Jesus is saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is not found in some higher realm or afterlife that many believe, but instead found within yourself as Brian also said.

 

And more deeply that once you "realize" that you are a "son", you will know that the "inside" and the "outside" are the same and that is the Kingdom. That "level" of realization and understanding is where one realizes that the "inner heart" maps directly to all of "external" creation.


  • cheya, Apech, Seth Ananda and 2 others said thanks

#31 Apech

Apech

    Ghost Cat

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 11145 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Absent
  • Interests:Ancient Egypt, Hermeticism, Meditation, Buddhism other stuff

Posted 25 September 2013 - 07:35 AM

Then, what/whom do you trust?

 

If trust = trussed > ninguem.   :)


Edited by Apech, 25 September 2013 - 07:35 AM.

"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 


#32 Apech

Apech

    Ghost Cat

  • The Dao Bums
  • Pip
  • 11145 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Absent
  • Interests:Ancient Egypt, Hermeticism, Meditation, Buddhism other stuff

Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:31 AM

3)   Jesus said, "If those who lead you say, 'See, the Kingdom is

in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they

say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and

you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living

Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty

and it is you who are that poverty."

 

I think this a very significant passage indeed.  Jesus starts by talking about 'those who lead you' - so he is addressing teachers here - or people that other people would follow.  He identifies two 'wrong' directions, the sky and the sea.  This could be taken figuratively but also symbolically as referring to 'air' and 'water' or perhaps reason and emotion.  Beings drawn in these directions could be birds and fishes.  That is people dominated by rationality who see the Kingdom, the goal if you like, as an ideal expression and those dominated by emotion who see the goal as a swell of feelings.  Jesus then is pointing to a third way.  And he is saying that if you follow those other ways you can be no better than the birds and the fish in that they have distinct realms in which they are happy but are not really free - for instance cast a bird into the sea and it is unhappy (unless its a penguin I suppose).

 

Jesus says the Kingdom is inside you and outside you.  Not two Kingdoms but one.  So actually this is saying to me - locate the kingdom within and the world will change - or even further what we perceive as the outer world is merely a projection of the Kingdom which is actually neither inner or outer but BOTH inner and outer (because when one comes to the Kingdom inner and outer cease to be a duality).

 

If you know yourself (an echo of the Greek 'motto' of the mysteries) that is you come into the Kingdom within yourself then you will be recognised - because coming into the Kingdom is an act of self-recognition … of knowing who you truly are … and that is a son of the Living Father … in other words a self transparent entity which recognises its own identity as the source power of everything - a son of light.  Otherwise you dwell in poverty … because you are that poverty … that is that lack of knowing.  BUT ironically 'blessed are the poor in spirit' - so it is not a condemnation but actually an affirmation that we need to be poor and know that we are poor if we are to find the Kingdom - the path of prodigality is affirmed. 


  • cheya, Mark Foote, Brian and 1 other said thanks

"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign."  J. S. Mill

 

 






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Christain, Gnostic

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users