Posted 22 September 2013 - 12:16 PM
You can't expect every "saying" to be completely self contained (or in a easy order). Like sutra it must be looked at in the broader context of what every Jewish person would have known at that time.
You said... "If he is saying that you will not experience death then this points to a form of immortality - as its Jesus I would assume physical immortality or the equivalent to what he achieved in being resurrected. I don't see here anything about reincarnation ... or indeed overcoming it ..."
The concept of reincarnation was common in the Jewish tradition at that time. Jesus even describes that John the baptist had a previous life in the bible. But, reincarnation or not, it really doesn't matter as part of the tradition. The main point is that the body "dies", but the spirit/soul does not. The same point is further described in Romans.
6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Errands to run. I will respond to you second point later today.
Continuing to the second point, Aoech said...
"I would like to know what words are translated as 'troubled' and 'astonished' here - maybe something like amazed and in awe (in the trad. sense) and the All I take to be the Godhead .... ruling the All is an expression which needs more teasing out for meaning I feel. I don't recognise the Buddha-like concept of ruling the All - Buddha as far as I know does not speak like this. Ruling here must be Christ the king of course."
The "troubled" point is very common in the gospels, remember that Jesus was bringing a "new covenant" or higher understanding. Here is one example, he goes on to describe that family members will fight over his words...
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
On what Buddha's are like or do, I would suggest you read the Lotus sutra, but that is not really important. But, in general, Jesus gives examples of the "rule the all" in many places in the gospels...
21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.
No worries... I am only speaking on my own authority.