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#17 dynamictao

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 06:58 PM

That's right. Surely, Fu is interpreted as "Universal Man" in that text, but the problem is that in the main text it's but a grammatical particle.

夫,人神好清;而心擾之。

Anyway, in olden times language was not as dead as today to be understood mechanically.

In this case, "Fu"  is not the same as the earlier use of "Fu."

I would take this one to mean "Because", "The truth is", etc. 

 

"The spirit of man prefers tranquility, but is disturbed by our mind." (roughly)

 

Same character with two meanings in two separate use. Both should be valid.

 

.


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#18 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:41 AM

I noticed that a lot of paragraphs in Charles Luk's translation of The Platform Sutra start with "Learned Gentlemen, ..."  as a way of addressing the audience.  I'm not sure if this is because of FU appearing, however.



#19 sufidao

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:23 AM

I noticed that a lot of paragraphs in Charles Luk's translation of The Platform Sutra start with "Learned Gentlemen, ..."  as a way of addressing the audience.  I'm not sure if this is because of FU appearing, however.

 

Lots of thanks to you,
Here is the text: http://philosophy.sysu.edu.cn/jdjsx/info_Print.asp?ArticleID=383
 
 And it's full of "凡夫", usually at the beginning of sentences. If the mentioned translation is available online, please share the link with us too.


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#20 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:52 AM

Lots of thanks to you,
Here is the text: http://philosophy.sysu.edu.cn/jdjsx/info_Print.asp?ArticleID=383
 
 And it's full of "凡夫", usually at the beginning of sentences. If the mentioned translation is available online, please share the link with us too.

 

Ha, Nice!

 

I don't know of links.  Found the book used for a steal before finding out it's worth (first print hardcover, 1962).  There are 3 paperback editions available for $30 right now on Amazon which normally go for upwards of $100


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#21 Harmonious Emptiness

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:38 PM

On second thought, now that I take a look at the text, I see what Luk translates as (actually) "learned friends" is the frequent appearance of 善知識! at the start of paragraphs.

 

As in:

 

 

"善知識!道須通流....

 

師示衆云:善知識!一行三昧者....

 

善知識!定惠猶如何等?...."


Edited by Harmonious Emptiness, 04 May 2013 - 12:39 PM.

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#22 ChiDragon

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:45 PM

Lots of thanks to you,
Here is the text: http://philosophy.sy...p?ArticleID=383
  And it's full of "凡夫", usually at the beginning of sentences. If the mentioned translation is available online, please share the link with us too.


"凡夫": ordinary man,

Copy 凡夫 and paste it into the window in the site below.

Chinese translation into English


靜觀其變 以靜制動
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#23 Walker

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:00 PM

When used at the start of a sentence in classical Chinese, 夫 almost always is a particle (also called "empty word/function word/form word" in English and 虚字/虚词 in Chinese) which has no direct translation into English.

 

Various sources agree that it is used when a new subject is being elucidated. For example, the excellent 《规范》 English-Chinese Chinese-English dictionary that Pleco software uses states:

 

 

 3. {particle} a. (used at the beginning of a sentence to introduce a new subject)

 

夫人必自侮而后人侮之。

fu ren bi zi wu erhou ren wu zhi

A man must despise himself before others will.

 

Similarly, the 《新华字典》 tells us:

 

 

夫3

(1)

用于句首,有提示作用

夫秦有虎狼之心。--《史记-项羽本径》

 

I offer my translation of the above quote: "used at the beginning of sentences, fu has the function of pointing out/prompting." The sentence in the third line, which the 《新华字典》 uses by way of example, could be translated as, "the people of Qin [one of the Warring States] have hearts like tigers and wolves." 

 

Note that in both the translation provided by 《规范》 and the one I made from the example in《新华字典》, 夫 is not translated.

 

Luckily, we can also use ancient dictionaries to find definitions for word usages from ancient times. Thus, if one consults the 《康熙字典》(compiled during the Qing dynasty) one finds amongst the numerous definitions for 夫 the following:

 

 

又【廣韻】防無切【集韻】【韻會】馮無切【正韻】逢夫切,音扶。語端辭。

 

This passage tells us that it was recorded in four important dictionaries, namely the《广韵》, 《集韵》, 《韵会》, and 《正韵》, that 夫 was a word used to start (端) discourse (语). 

 

As for the second part,

 

Thanks Dawei,
It helped me a lot. Consequently when it is used at the beginning of a sentence, it is a grammatical particle, not to refer to a reality. Now, I wonder how it is interpreted in a classical Chinese text like this:

 

人得一為大,大得一為天,超出天外,方為夫字。

 

Here we are being given a definition of the word 夫 that I have never seen in any dictionary and which can be understood as an explanation of 夫 as a heiroglyph with a relationship to Daoist cultivation. First things first, as to why this particular definition does not show up in, for example, the 《康熙字典》, I will say that what this sentence presents is probably a relatively obscure and perhaps even contentious usage of 夫. Daoist definitions of words do make it into the 《康熙字典》, but from what I have seen, they almost all come from "mainstream" texts like Laozi, Zhuangzi, Liezi, or Ge Hong's Baopuzi, and not from little-known alchemical works. Confucian word uses are much, much more common in the 《康熙字典》, and in the Confucian tradition, the word 夫 refers to teachers. Thus, Confucius himself is given the title "孔老夫子."

 

Anyway, to understand that we are talking about a heiroglyphic interpretation of the characters here, it is helpful to view the four in question side-by-side, to see how similar they are:

 

人 大 天 夫

 

This sentence describes the unfolding of an individual's change during the process of Daoist cultivation. The changes are represented first by the addition of two horizontal lines, turning 人 into 大 and then into 天 and finally by the addition of one vertical line, turning 天 into 夫). Hence, the explanation, which ChiDragon was kind enough to provide, although I am afraid his translation leaves out a number of very important key points. I have thus provided my own translation, adding color every time one of the horizontal and vertial lines appears:

 

解 Explanation:

 

人在後天本是陰陽混合之體,At the postnatal (后天) level, humans are fundamentally a body of mixed yin and yang

 

此色身得,When this form body (色身--similar or the same as this Buddhist usage: "色身 rūpakāya. The physical body, as contrasted with the 法身 dharmakāya, the immaterial, spiritual, or immortal body.") obtains the one

 

即得先天氣,It obtains primordial/prenatal (先天) qi

 

就是大,So it is great,

 

大仍是人,Though great, still a human,

 

只是色身日壯,It is only the form body daily becoming stronger

 

陰氣日消,Yin qi vanishing day-by-day

 

陽氣日長,Yang qi increasing/growing day-by-day

 

大又得先天氣,When the great again obtains one primordial qi


即小天地與大天地之元始始氣合為一體,It is the small heaven and earth (ie, microcosm) and great heaven and earth's (ie, macrocosm) primordial initial qi (原始始气) combining into a single body

 

若是煉神還虛,If one cultivates spirit to return to emptiness

 

煉虛合道,And cultivates emptiness to join with the Dao

 

就能超出三界外,One is then able to exceed beyond the three realms/worlds

 

Note: the three worlds are sometimes synonymous in Daoism and Buddhism, and sometimes not. In Buddhism they refer to the mortal realms of desire, form, and formless. However, sometimes for Daoists the 三界 can refer to the three realms of form (形), qi, and spirit (神), the latter of which is immortal.

 

不在五行中,Not being within the five phases

 

就是超出天外,Is exceeding beyond the heavens

 

就是夫。Is fu.

 

So in the above we see that the horizontal lines representing "obtaining" the one appear first, giving us the character for heaven; finally, when one cultivates to such a high level that one is no longer in the three realms, then one obtains a vertical line, indicating a very profound transcendence, true immortality in both a Daoist and Buddhist sense.

 

I do not know for sure, but I suppose that the character 夫, understood in this sense, could be used as an honorific title for Daoist immortals, though I can't recall ever seeing it be used that way. All in all, the very esoteric and informative use of the word 夫 from the quoted passage has (probably) very little to do with the particle 夫 used at the beginning of sentences.

 

Two final notes, 夫 originally depicts a grown-up man (大) with a long hairpin stuck through his topknot.

 

Secondly, yes, 凡夫 means "ordinary man," but it is used in religious contexts to provide contrast to a human who has had spiritual awakening or who is perhaps a descended heavenly being.


Edited by Walker, 03 June 2013 - 01:21 AM.

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#24 ChiDragon

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 11:03 PM

Secondly, yes, 凡夫 means "ordinary man," but it is also used in religious contexts to provide contrast to a human who has had spiritual awakening or who is perhaps a descended heavenly being.

From a religious point of view and linguistically, you are correct....... :)


Edited by ChiDragon, 03 June 2013 - 11:58 PM.

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#25 ChiDragon

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 12:17 AM

又【廣韻】防無切【集韻】【韻會】馮無切【正韻】逢夫切,音扶。語端辭。

 

 

FYI the character "切" is an indication of how the 夫 is pronounced by the combined sounds of the two preceding characters. 
【廣韻】, 【集韻】, 【韻會】and 【正韻】 are four ways to pronounce it.

【集韻】【韻會】馮無切 indicates these pronunciations(in blue) are pronounced the same as in red.


語端: either end of a sentence/phrase, example, 夫 may be used at the beginning or the end of a sentence or phrase.

語端辭: means that the character was to be placed at either end of the sentence.

 


Edited by ChiDragon, 04 June 2013 - 12:25 AM.

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#26 Walker

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:46 AM

I am afraid you are wrong, ChiDragon. Look at the entire entry that I quoted from the Kangxi Dictionary, including its example in the Analects:

 

 

又【廣韻】防無切【集韻】【韻會】馮無切【正韻】逢夫切,音扶。語端辭。【論語】夫仁者。
 

 

Conversely, the very next sentence in the dictionary states:

 

又語已辭。【論語】如斯夫。
 

 

The character 端, confusingly, can refer to both beginnings and ends. However, in this context, a 语端 as spoken of in the Kangxi Dictionary is the start of a sentence or clause; a 语已 is the end.

 

The examples, both from the Analects, that the Kangxi Dictionary draws upon demonstrate my point.


Link to the digital version of the 《康熙字典》 that I drew from here: http://tool.httpcn.c...MEUYRNPWB.shtml


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氣也者,虛而待物者也。唯道集虛,虛者,心齋也。


#27 sufidao

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 04:43 AM

Thanks Walker  :) 

【論語】夫仁者。

Now, what should be the translation of "夫仁者"? should it be translated at all?

Here is the full sentence from the Analects: (punctuation by Charles Muller):

子貢曰。如有博施於民而能濟衆、何如 可謂仁乎。子曰。何事於仁 必也聖乎。堯舜其猶病諸 夫仁者、己欲立而立人、己欲達而達人。能近取譬、可謂仁之方也已。

How about "夫道者" that is frequent particularly in Wenzi and other Daoist and even non-Daoist texts?


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#28 ChiDragon

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:13 AM

Conversely, the very next sentence in the dictionary states:

又語已辭。【論語】如斯夫。

 

The character 端, confusingly, can refer to both beginnings and ends. However, in this context, a 语端 as spoken of in the Kangxi Dictionary is the start of a sentence or clause; a 语已 is the end.

 

The examples, both from the Analects, that the Kangxi Dictionary draws upon demonstrate my point.


Link to the digital version of the 《康熙字典》 that I drew from here: http://tool.httpcn.c...MEUYRNPWB.shtml


Yes, you are correct about "The character 端, confusingly, can refer to both beginnings and ends"
I should have had stated that 语端 as the ends of a sentence. if you think like a classical Chinese, there are two ends in sentence line. However, it was understood by the classical scholars. Therefore, 夫 can be placed at either end of the classic sentence/phrase.

The character 已 in 语 was definitely specified it is at the end of a sentence but not the beginning for sure.
This is a good example that you gave: 又語已辭。【論語】如斯夫。


Edited by ChiDragon, 04 June 2013 - 07:21 AM.

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#29 ChiDragon

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:18 AM

I am afraid you are wrong, ChiDragon. Look at the entire entry that I quoted from the Kangxi Dictionary, including its example in the Analects:
 

又【廣韻】防無切【集韻】【韻會】馮無切【正韻】逢夫切,音扶。語端辭。【論語】夫仁者。


Walker...
May I ask what are you trying to prove here....???

To the best of my understanding, I think you want to give an example to show that "夫" was used at the beginning of a phrase as indicated in red.

The indication in blue was showing the different ways of pronunciation. Was that your intention...???


PS....
Another question! You seem to have a great deal of knowledge about the Chinese classics. May I ask you to give me a little background about yourself. Thanks.


Edited by ChiDragon, 04 June 2013 - 07:42 AM.

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#30 ChiDragon

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 07:40 AM

Thanks Walker  :) 

【論語】夫仁者。

Now, what should be the translation of "夫仁者"? should it be translated at all?

Here is the full sentence from the Analects: (punctuation by Charles Muller):

子貢曰。如有博施於民而能濟衆、何如 可謂仁乎。子曰。何事於仁 必也聖乎。堯舜其猶病諸 夫仁者、己欲立而立人、己欲達而達人。能近取譬、可謂仁之方也已。

How about "夫道者" that is frequent particularly in Wenzi and other Daoist and even non-Daoist texts?


子貢曰:如有博施於民,而能濟眾,何如。可謂仁乎。子曰:何事於仁,必也,聖乎堯舜其猶病諸。夫仁者,己欲立而立人,己欲達而達人,能近取譬,可謂仁之方也已。

The "" in 夫仁者 should not be translated. It is because the character was used as an auxiliary word to make it sound better to begin a phrase or sentence.

Please keep in mind, sometimes, the "" at the beginning of a phrase/sentence can be translated as "therefore".


 


Edited by ChiDragon, 04 June 2013 - 08:16 AM.

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#31 Walker

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:37 AM

Thanks Walker  :) 

【論語】夫仁者。

Now, what should be the translation of "夫仁者"? should it be translated at all?
 

 

I agree with ChiDragon. I really can't think of a good way to translate 夫 in this sentence.

 

 


Yes, you are correct about "The character 端, confusingly, can refer to both beginnings and ends"
I should have had stated that 语端 as the ends of a sentence. if you think like a classical Chinese, there are two ends in sentence line. However, it was understood by the classical scholars. Therefore, 夫 can be placed at either end of the classic sentence/phrase.

The character 已 in 语 was definitely specified it is at the end of a sentence but not the beginning for sure.
This is a good example that you gave: 又語已辭。【論語】如斯夫。

 

There is a chance you are right, or that sometimes 语端辞 refers to what you speak of, but I am afraid I do not buy your argument.

 

First of all, you are contradicted by the 《古汉语知识辞典》: 

 

发语词,亦作“发语辞”。也称“句首语词”、“发语助词”、“发语助字”、“发声”、“语端辞”、“发端字”、“发语之端”、“发言之端”、“发词(辞)”等。助词的一种。多指用于句首的助词。

(link)

 

Secondly, I spend a lot of time with the Kangxi Dictionary. Following the Kangxi's own patterns of logic, with the entry on 夫 I would say that it does not appear that the authors agree with your definition. I provided a link above to the full Kangxi definition which you may wish to peruse.

 

Since we are on the topic, if you can provide a quotation or direct me to a written source that supports your contention, I would be most happy to go and take a look, and even to humbly stand corrected.

 

 

 

Quote

又【廣韻】防無切【集韻】【韻會】馮無切【正韻】逢夫切,音扶。語端辭。【論語】夫仁者。

 

 


Walker...
May I ask what are you trying to prove here....???

 

Kangxi lists the various sources. I am not trying to prove anything, but it is worth it students to know that this usage of 夫 shows up in numerous important dictionaries stemming from antiquity, whereas other usages may be more obscure and show up only in specific classics, but not dictionaries.

 

 

PS....
Another question! You seem to have a great deal of knowledge about the Chinese classics. May I ask you to give me a little background about yourself. Thanks.

 

If I appear to have great knowledge of the Classics, forgive me, for I have decieved you.

 

As for my background, 我已不过问.


氣也者,虛而待物者也。唯道集虛,虛者,心齋也。


#32 ChiDragon

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 02:22 PM

There is a chance you are right, or that sometimes 语端辞 refers to what you speak of, but I am afraid I do not buy your argument.

 

First of all, you are contradicted by the 《古汉语知识辞典》: 

 

 

Secondly, I spend a lot of time with the Kangxi Dictionary. Following the Kangxi's own patterns of logic, with the entry on 夫 I would say that it does not appear that the authors agree with your definition. I provided a link above to the full Kangxi definition which you may wish to peruse.

 

Since we are on the topic, if you can provide a quotation or direct me to a written source that supports your contention, I would be most happy to go and take a look, and even to humbly stand corrected.

 

Kangxi lists the various sources. I am not trying to prove anything, but it is worth it students to know that this usage of 夫 shows up in numerous important dictionaries stemming from antiquity, whereas other usages may be more obscure and show up only in specific classics, but not dictionaries.

 

If I appear to have great knowledge of the Classics, forgive me, for I have decieved you.

 

As for my background, 我已不过问.

The link you have provided for me do agree with most of what I had learned .

 

 

Since we are on the topic, if you can provide a quotation or direct me to a written source that supports your contention, I would be most happy to go and take a look, and even to humbly stand corrected.

Thank you for the opportunity, I will use the link that you have provided for me to pursue is suffice.
 

If I appear to have great knowledge of the Classics, forgive me, for I have decieved you.

You've sure surprised me..... :) 

 

 


靜觀其變 以靜制動
Beware of the unexpected silently
Handle adversity with calmness

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