konchog uma Posted February 28, 2013 Hi Stefos Well hopefully this isn't an argument.. Konchog believes that you can't "illuminate the truth in words, writing.." Perhaps scholars or pandits can't.. I say you can. If an enlightened being writes words down, there is a characteristic vibratory signature that can be dectected. But you have to be resonating at the same level or at least a high enough level in order to detect it. Have you ever heard the expression, it takes someone with heart to recognize someone else with heart? yeah but its not the words themselves that illuminate the truth. its the vibration of the consciousness, and it requires readiness, or sensitivity, as noted. Tilopa hit Naropa in the face with his shoe and Naropa experienced the natural state as a result. Tilopa did this because all the words in the world were obscuring the truth from Naropa, who was a scholar. See what i mean? So in other words, the teachings of an enlightened master are just a medium for the transmission.. they are not the important thing itself, from a certain point of view. An enlightened teacher could babble nonsense at me and if i was prepared, i could bask in that wakefulness and possibly experience an opening of consciousness. A teacher could spit in my eye or hit me in the face and it might be more useful than all the words they could blather about enlightenment. Which is why i said "finger, moon..." so you are only half disagreeing with me, because what you supply to support your point of view is the same thing i could supply to support my own. I don't want to speak too much from personal experience, because thats very private and i dont have very much of it, but i think its relevant and useful to say that I have had greater experience of the natural state with my root lama that were born of silence than i ever experienced trying to understand the words he was saying at me. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hydrogen Posted February 28, 2013 have you ever played the game where you pass a secret around a circle by whispering it, and by the time it gets back to the person who started it, its something completely different? the 300 years between Shakyamuni and the Pali texts are like that. I don't think divine message works like that. If a "divine" message could be butched and mutilated to be ineffective, it's not a divine message to start with. You seem to be a guru follower. Nothing wrong with that. In my personal experience, the "transmission" can come from unelightened person, even someone who's not in the sipiritual path. They are just medium of the divine message. Think about it, if God/Tao wants you to know or experience something, who could stop it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted March 1, 2013 TI and i are both grown ups. Thank you for your concern, but its okay to disagree. Nobody was calling names or throwing a tantrum, and I don't think we need your moderation. Excuse me sir. I didn't mean to come across as being patronizing! I understand that you are adults. Your response to me however isn't good and is very telling. You immediately judged my phrase without even asking about my intent! Does that make sense to you? At that, you don't even know me! If you're a Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Atheist, you should know better! Show some humility. Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Hi Stefos Well hopefully this isn't an argument.. Konchog believes that you can't "illuminate the truth in words, writing.." Perhaps scholars or pandits can't.. I say you can. If an enlightened being writes words down, there is a characteristic vibratory signature that can be dectected. But you have to be resonating at the same level or at least a high enough level in order to detect it. Have you ever heard the expression, it takes someone with heart to recognize someone else with heart? Heck, you don't even have to write it down in words. Just look at the footprints left in rock by Marpa.. Isn't that capturing the truth right there? http://www.kagyu.org/kagyulineage/lineage/kag05.php But, I was going to ask you. Where exactly did you write about your clairvoyant vision in the Occult section? TI Hi, Karma Triyana Dharmachakra website huh? LOL....I ordered my Ekajati statue from there...hahaha, nice! It's the 13" inch gilded copper one with flames on their site....cool. I live in New Hampshire btw. Transmission is another issue TI as you probably know. Dzogchen requires it for "regular people" but some arahats, boddhisattas, etc. might already know it and thus don't need transmission! Regarding my clairvoyant opening many moons ago: -Go to the "hermetic/occult" section on the Tao bums forums tab -Go to "Why are you into this stuff?" thread -Read Stefos experience! Yup, it only happened once sir...never again. Rudolf Steiner said that if one has an initial clairvoyant budding like that, it can fade away because it's not mature. One hasn't developed one's spiritual "organs" properly/fully yet. Oh, well! LOL.....EXCELSIORRR! Onwards! Just kidding...proceed with much caution not seeking siddhis. A suggestion: Pick up a copy of "How to know higher worlds" by Rudolf Steiner sir.....Tell me about it afterwards.....Yep! Dr. Steiner detailed, insofar as he could publicly, how to proceed along the occult path with a Christian perspective. This gent was NOT foolin' around! God bless you.............E MA HO....indeed Stefos Edited March 1, 2013 by stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted March 1, 2013 I don't think divine message works like that. If a "divine" message could be butched and mutilated to be ineffective, it's not a divine message to start with. You seem to be a guru follower. Nothing wrong with that. In my personal experience, the "transmission" can come from unelightened person, even someone who's not in the sipiritual path. They are just medium of the divine message. Think about it, if God/Tao wants you to know or experience something, who could stop it? Hello sir, I believe you....I've seen stuff happen too! God used a donkey in the bible. We're talking about G.O.D. right? Not the milkman! lol......Catch my drift? Take care, Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted March 1, 2013 Tilopa hit Naropa in the face with his shoe and Naropa experienced the natural state as a result. Tilopa did this because all the words in the world were obscuring the truth from Naropa, who was a scholar. See what i mean? This was just the beginning. Then Naropa was given all sorts of empowerments and so forth. "Finally, people have a funny idea for example that Tilopa hitting Naropa on the head was the end of Naropa's path. They don't realize that that was the beginning and it was only after that that Tilopa gave Naropa empowerments, practices connected with the channels and so on. N" http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=4555&p=46821#p46821 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tibetan_Ice Posted March 1, 2013 Tilopa hit Naropa in the face with his shoe and Naropa experienced the natural state as a result. Tilopa did this because all the words in the world were obscuring the truth from Naropa, who was a scholar. See what i mean? Hi Konchog The reason Tilopa hit Naropa in the face with his shoe was to 'break on through' to the other side, as Alan Wallace would put it. Zen beats you with a stick. Shatter that alaya.. But Tilopa sure put Naropa through hell, didn't he? Broken bones, torture, pain.. Or perhaps it was heaven.. http://www.karmapa.org/history/naropa_2.htm TI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted March 4, 2013 Excuse me sir. I didn't mean to come across as being patronizing! I understand that you are adults. Your response to me however isn't good and is very telling. You immediately judged my phrase without even asking about my intent! Does that make sense to you? At that, you don't even know me! If you're a Buddhist/Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Atheist, you should know better! Show some humility. Stefos now youre being patronizing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PrimordialLotus Posted March 5, 2013 This is non-logical since Buddhism is based on the teachings of many Buddhas such as the Mahasiddhas, Dzogchen tertons etc. Not just Shakyamuni Gautama Buddha. I always laugh when people claim Buddhism "originated" with Gautama. There were many Buddhas before him; and many after. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted March 5, 2013 now youre being patronizing Understood....overboard....Please forgive me Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted March 5, 2013 I always laugh when people claim Buddhism "originated" with Gautama. There were many Buddhas before him; and many after. No, Buddhism didn't originate w/Gautama but when dogmatic claims are made...HARD evidence is needed. If anything the sects found in Sri Lanka, Thailand, etc. probably reflect what Gautama taught very closely BUT...miss it. Dzogchen I believe is what Gautama taught...I don't know what the Pali redactors of the Nikayas did...honestly......I wish a gigantic cache was found with really ancient texts.......I'd die and come back to life again! lol Stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teknix Posted March 5, 2013 How could you say anything about god without first defining god? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted March 5, 2013 Understood....overboard....Please forgive me Stefos no problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted March 5, 2013 I don't think divine message works like that. If a "divine" message could be butched and mutilated to be ineffective, it's not a divine message to start with. You seem to be a guru follower. Nothing wrong with that. In my personal experience, the "transmission" can come from unelightened person, even someone who's not in the sipiritual path. They are just medium of the divine message. Think about it, if God/Tao wants you to know or experience something, who could stop it? i was into mark griffin for a while but stepped away from all that.. i don't think of my root lama as a guru but i guess you could. Anyway, no nothing wrong with all that, but i think people do it because they tend to experience transmission more often from a guru than from an ordinary joe on the street. i dont think there are any rules tho, and while i tend to look at it from the point of view of karma, instead of god/dao, if a person is meant to awaken, or have a particular experience, i agree there is little to do to stop that from happening 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RongzomFan Posted March 6, 2013 (edited) Stefos, now I understand why you are always undermining Buddhism: I'm a Christian, non-denom, who believes in the biblical version of the bible only. http://thetaobums.com/topic/27363-new-member/?p=411227 Edited March 6, 2013 by alwayson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idiot_stimpy Posted March 6, 2013 Many have heard about Buddhist practice, but few want to really commit to it. Rarer still is someone who practices and comes to realize his self-nature. http://chancenter.org/cmc/1994/06/29/dreaming-and-waking-2/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) Stefos, now I understand why you are always undermining Buddhism: http://thetaobums.com/topic/27363-new-member/?p=411227 Go home sir. I'm undermining your false Buddhist views......I've provided enough intellectual food for you for 20 lifetimes. You do not understand the things I've been through and Reading words doesn't define a person..... Stefos P.S. I believe you are a quasi-Buddhist at best, huckster and liar at worst. Edited March 7, 2013 by stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stefos Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) http://chancenter.org/cmc/1994/06/29/dreaming-and-waking-2/ I'm sorry idiot Stimpy....but what the heck is this junk?: Quote: "Several years ago I had a class in which there was a sudden electrical blackout. All of the people in the class started to shout and laugh. Why? Their hidden minds emerged." No, it's not their "hidden minds"....it's people carrying facades ESPECIALLY the biggest facade called "Self delusion" where people are either not serious or just surface or just wanted a laugh because they are bored. Look sir....Can I suggest that you go back to the Pali Nikayas and stay there for some time? Find an ancient lineage and see what they say and then move back to Chan/Zen. I've heard about so many purported "Ch'an/Zen" teachers and the awkwardness in how & what they teach that I want to vomit.....seriously I do not know who these people are and what affiliations they have insofar as a Buddhist lineage is concerned, at all. My advice is to stay away from them. Peace, Stefos BTW, you might want to read about my Buddhist history posts....not that I'm an expert, I've only researched these matters. Edited March 7, 2013 by stefos Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
