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Tonal & Nagual


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#1 Jox

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 09:47 AM

"The terms tonal and nagual were used in the esoteric School of don Juan Matus described in the books of Carlos Castaneda.
These terms denote two “parallel” worlds that comprise the universe — the world of material objects (tonal) and the non-material world (nagual).
We communicate with the world of matter through the so-called first awareness, i.e. the one which is carried out through the sense organs of the physical body.
To become able of cognizing the nagual, one has to develop the second awareness, that is, clairvoyance.
The term nagual had another meaning in this case: a person-leader who has mastered the nagual and is capable of acting in it and from it. In the School mentioned above, such a leader, i.e. Nagual, was don Juan Matus.
Below follow several excerpts from the book by Carlos Castaneda Tales of Power (in these excerpts the term nagual means the non-material world):
“The tonal begins at birth and ends at death, but the nagual never ends. The nagual has no limit. The nagual is where Power hovers.”
“For the nagual, there is no land, or air, or water. Therefore, the nagual glides, or flies, or does anything it can do in the time of the nagual, which is not related at all to the time of the tonal. These two things do not intersect.”
“The tonal and the nagual are two different worlds. In one you talk, in the other you act.”
(Castaneda C. — Tales of Power. "Pocket Books", N.Y., 1978)"


My question is, how do you manage your Tonal and your Nagual trough your spiritual practice and your life?

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Edited by Jox, 23 December 2012 - 09:49 AM.


#2 billb

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 11:56 PM

Just curious have you developed your nagual or second awareness to the point where now you can manage it? I think Carlos spent many years with a teacher and could still not achieve this so you are assuming some pretty lofty accomplishments among the people in ttb's. I just think this is a very high accomplishment in and of itself but maybe some people here have achieved this, have you?

Edited by billb, 23 December 2012 - 11:57 PM.


#3 idiot_stimpy

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 02:25 AM

It would be interesting to see what definition don Juan Matus had of clairvoyance.

#4 Jox

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 02:40 PM

My point was to hear the parallel concepts to tonal and nagual from taoist point of view or terminology.

For example in Don Juan teaching, they split the warriors tonal and nagual on the left and right side.
So... when does this happen as result of internal alchemy practice or whatever meditation, yoga, etc...?

#5 manitou

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 03:23 PM

I too have spent many hours with the don Juan teachings. To me, it is the same as a third eye. I certainly envy his ability to dream and even admit others into his separate reality.

Joy is the Dao.

 

               -The mysterious dancer in the black cowboy hat-

 

                                       


#6 Vmarco

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 06:22 PM

“For the nagual, there is no land, or air, or water. Therefore, the nagual glides, or flies, or does anything it can do in the time of the nagual, which is not related at all to the time of the tonal. These two things do not intersect.”
“The tonal and the nagual are two different worlds. In one you talk, in the other you act.”
(Castaneda C. — Tales of Power. "Pocket Books", N.Y., 1978)"


Naga, meaning Wise Serpent, is one of the few words that span both centuries and continents. For instance, Nargals were Chaldean chiefs of the Magi, and Naguals were, and are, the title of the brujos of some tribes of Mexican Indians, dating back to at least Quetzlcoatl, the Plumed Serpent.

For many years the Nagual in Central America would meet during Solar Apex over Lake Catemaca following the vernal equinox. I was there in 1998.
 

Like the biblical Abraham, who traveled west from south-central Asia’s Pakistan region (Jos 24:2–3), many groups journeyed west. One of these is said to be the Goddess-oriented Tuatha de Danann. The Tuatha de Danann honored the goddess Danu and appear to have settled for a while in Greece before going north through Germania and then across the English Channel to the Emerald Isle. With them traveled many words and the roots for new ones.

Before the Míl Espáine (Soldiers of Hispania) invaded Ireland, the Emerald Island was inhabited by the Tuatha De Danann; Naga's who migrated from the Swat Valley region. This Naga shamanic clan is said to have briefly settled in Greece, and used their magick to revive slain Athenians who were battling Assyrians, giving them an endless number of soldiers for battle.

The Aryan Naga's, like the Tuatha De Danann, were associated with Dakini’s, Faeries, Astronomy, and Arts of sorcery, magick and necromancy,...like the Mahasiddhas.

Some say that the Naga were present at Buddha's birth.

To more fully understand the nature of Naga's, ponder upon those entities associated with wings:
http://thetaobums.co...age__hl__lilith
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#7 steve

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 07:19 PM

For anyone interested in the Toltec paradigm, I'd recommend the writings of Don Miguel Ruiz. Very simple, practical, and powerful, only not as sexy as Castaneda.
The way to begin to approach the Nagual is to decide to live the life of a warrior.
The five initial weapons in your arsenal are:
- be impeccable in word and deed
- take nothing personally
- let go of expectations
- be totally committed
- believe nothing and learn to listen
Very powerful stuff if you live it.
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#8 Vmarco

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:09 PM

- be impeccable in word and deed

Very powerful stuff if you live it.


Surely, the idea of being impeccable with our word is one of the principles of the Mexican nagual (similar in ways to the pre-Buddhist naga). This quite misunderstood principle of power and creativity has not only been embraced in many new age marketing seminars, but also among religions selling their particular brand of faith. However, that is not impeccableness. In fact, if one would step aside of their ego for a moment, they’d clearly recognize that it is impossible for a religious or belief-centered person to be impeccable with their word, because religion is nothing more than a set of beliefs.

Impeccable suggests being faultless, flawless, and irreproachable with one’s word. This impeccability is not only being careful in speech while communicating to the outside world, but while dialoguing with the inside as well.

If someone tells you, "Be impeccable with your word, for it is a gift from god", that’s being dishonest, not impeccable. Impeccable means being fully honest and truthful. They are using the idea of impeccability to mislead and deceive. All faith-based words mislead and deceive.
 

Recognizing the false is nearly impossible for someone who is not honest,...that is, impeccable with the words both spoken and thought.
 

For the most part, being impeccable with one's word is often unacceptable on TTB. For many, beliefs are more important than honesty.
 

A favorite quote about honest that I often use is: "Start knowing what you really know, and stop believing what you really don’t know. Somebody asks you. "Is there a God?" and you say, "Yes, God is." Remember: Do you really know? If you don’t know, please don’t say that you do. Say, "I don’t know.". . . False knowing is the enemy of true knowledge. All beliefs are false knowledge."

Yet so many cling to gods and divine delusions. Shakyamuni Buddha said in the Kalama Sutra, "Do not accept anything by mere tradition. . . Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. . . Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your preconceived notions." Buddha taught irreligion; that is, to not accept "sets of belief."

Lao Tzu said, "Do not go about worshipping deities and religious institutions as the source of the subtle truth.....religions are desperate, clever, human inventions that rely on hypnotic manipulation of undeveloped minds."
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#9 Vmarco

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Posted 25 December 2012 - 09:11 PM

- let go of expectations

Very powerful stuff if you live it.


Is there a more dishonest, perniciousness word than hope?

hope n. from ME. hopa, an expectation. 1. expectation of something desired; anticipation of some future event. 2. a guess or belief. 3. that which gives hope; a substance or object hoped for; an expected payoff.

No matter what level we wish to view it from, hope is false. Hope is an anticipation of the future; thus it must arise from a predisposition, a belief, and attachment to the past. Hope implies lack,...how else could we possibly define it? Hope is for something we think we don't possess.

How could hope ever be expressed through an Open-Mind or Open-Heart ? The belief of hope is a barrier that obscures the present. The Heart of our Essence would not express lack or need, nor see positive or negative as good or evil, beauty or blight.

If our attention is on seeking hope, how are we to ever experience the immediacy required to be in the Present? If we seek hope, our overall frequency pattern projects a self-manifested incompleteness, and thus can only attract to itself, that incompleteness. It is no different than a mirror in ones bathroom; if you look into the mirror with a frown, it will not reflect back a smile. In other words, our hope will never be realized as long as we hope; just like joy is never actualized if we are looking for it.

Edited by Vmarco, 25 December 2012 - 09:12 PM.

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#10 Vmarco

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 06:14 AM

- believe nothing and learn to listen
Very powerful stuff if you live it.


Belief is more than merely an unquestioning acceptance of something in the absence of reason or a conviction to make palatable something that we do not understand. Beliefs hold rein on the physical body and its relationships, which, through the frequency of the belief itself, suppresses, denies, disempowers, and disconnects.

Beliefs and their words arise from the head. All religion, by definition, are merely sets of belief. Beliefs arise from the reptilian brain, which the Greeks called psyche. Among the Greeks, Egyptians, early Buddhists, etc., the Higher Mind was associated with the thymus.

Beliefs cannot recognize the Heart-Mind. There is no 'real life' without truth. Believers are lost within a falsity that they consider real, and will never be real.

Spiritual Friendship (Kalyana Mittata)
cannot occur through belief and faith-based agendas.
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#11 manitou

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:42 AM

Wonderful stuff, VMarco and Steve. Belief and Knowledge are two entirely diffferent things. and to 'hope' is to try and pin down a particular manifestation in the future - a direct conflict with accepting All That Is. All I know for sure is that It's All Good. It's all a Manifestation, and it's all not really even happening.

Joy is the Dao.

 

               -The mysterious dancer in the black cowboy hat-

 

                                       


#12 Vmarco

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:17 PM

- be totally committed

Very powerful stuff if you live it.


This thread, and its minimal response, has been an excellent tell as to the state of committment to awareness on this forum.
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#13 GrandmasterP

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 04:23 PM

Well I for one sincerely hope that you are wrong Vmarco.
Chinese Health QiGong Association here...
http://jsqg.sport.org.cn/en/
More about Mindfulness here...
http://bemindful.co.uk/

" A Zen master's life is one continuous mistake."
( Dogen).

#14 MERCELESS ONE

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:23 PM

This thread, and its minimal response, has been an excellent tell as to the state of committment to awareness on this forum.


lmao, thats so true! ive run into that alot on here. ppls believs and how they mean more than truth. and may be the reason ppl havent reached the heights of meditation and energy that most wish to!
"I DO NOT KNEEL BEFORE MAN NOR GOD, BUT STAND AS AN IMMORTAL TITAN AMONGST THE COSMOS"

#15 MERCELESS ONE

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:30 PM

Well I for one sincerely hope that you are wrong Vmarco.


its sad but i know that hes is. awarness of onself and the world around as ive found in 95% of ppl ive come in contact with not including this site dont care about expanding awareness! ppl are content with being comfortable with what they believe, and hope for! and that you used hope you already had a preconcieved notion that ppl do want to better them selves. i know this to not to be so.
"I DO NOT KNEEL BEFORE MAN NOR GOD, BUT STAND AS AN IMMORTAL TITAN AMONGST THE COSMOS"

#16 MERCELESS ONE

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Posted 26 December 2012 - 08:34 PM

finally somones talking about the nagual way of being. the books by carlos casteneda started my awareness training that until reading this thread didnt realize how much they changed my way of thinking. after the first time i awoke within a dream i was hooked. and to this day i still use the techniques from those books.
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"I DO NOT KNEEL BEFORE MAN NOR GOD, BUT STAND AS AN IMMORTAL TITAN AMONGST THE COSMOS"




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