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#33 Cheshire Cat

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 08:24 AM

 HAHAHA  Oh yes, the Hindu Realms and Buddhist Realms interplay simply because they are of each other in different vibrational levels manifesting for specific functions in different realms.

 

 Different names, different forms, different functions, and definitely transformation bodies of each other. hahahaha  It gets so deep...and then, it is so obvious.

This is religion. How can you prove it?



#34 林愛偉

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:10 PM

This is religion. How can you prove it?

 

I wasn't talking about religion, I was talking about different realms and very briefly stating their inhabitants. Never said anything about the usual idea of what most people think these things are.

 

The problem with conventional thinking is that it truly believes that anything involving things requiring a cultivation of the mind makes it a religion.

 

As I have experienced, none of these things are religious at all. Only people have made them into a method of dependency and stagnation. That doesn't make Buddhism and or Hinduism, nor Daoism, and anything else limited by how the majority utilize them.

 

truthfully, there is no such thing as religion. Only methods to awaken. How those methods are utilized are up to those cultivating them. If they feel a "religious" approach; kind of like what most people are familiar with, is necessary, then so be it.

 

Any manner of its application doesn't lessen the wisdom and truth of what it actually is.

 


 


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#35 林愛偉

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Posted 19 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

Though science shows the process/progress of thing in this world, and seems to "prove" that what we speak in Daoism is "true" it actually can't "disprove" it, and even because it can't "disprove" it it still doesn't "prove" that anything we speak in Daoism is "true"

 

Don't forget, Daoism is just a name of a manner of practice. It isn't the end all be all method at all. Buddhism is just a name of practice. Whether there are immortals, different gods, Buddhas, etc, doesn't make anything we cultivate limited by human's ideas of their own understanding.

 

Modern science leaves out its other counter part the actual essence of how modern science became that way. its called mind, and in the old days those two things weren't separated, never thought to have to be separated, and thus never mixed together. They were just a whole science.

 

Also, lastly,  when the waya to "prove" something is denied actual use, why even bother?

 

I can prove everything I say. The only problem is the method needed to do it will not be used sincerely, and thus the inquirer will be disappointed.

 

My method, cultivation. :-) no faith in anything or anyone, just oneself and acceptance of leaving aside the discriminating mind, while sincerely practice the cultivation needed to function in order for the mind to 'open" (so to say)  If there are any doubts along the way, its useless and shows insincerity.


Edited by 林愛偉, 19 January 2013 - 04:20 PM.

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#36 Cheshire Cat

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:11 AM

I wasn't talking about religion, I was talking about different realms and very briefly stating their inhabitants. Never said anything about the usual idea of what most people think these things are.

 

 

This is exactly what religion is all about.
In the West we have a "branch" of religious thought  that is called theology: in this matter, people studied things like -how many angels can sit on a pinhead?- and various explanations on how the world is shaped, class of heavenly beings, etc...
This is what I call religion...
 
Everyone can easily prove to himself that bodhisattvas come from hindu tradition. People wanted to worship Gods: this was necessary to transform an ascetic movement (the original buddhism) into a religion.
 
Mahayana buddhism isn't just practice: it develops all sort of ideas about the cosmos, the mind and it's relation with other religion... I've heard buddhists that measure the realization of Lao-tzu as limited to alaya-consciousness.

Edited by DAO rain TAO, 20 January 2013 - 12:11 AM.


#37 林愛偉

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 02:51 AM

It may be what you call religion, but it isn't religion at all...especially to the sense most people are aware of. If stating how many things are out there in the universe, and the many of them, as well as their workings are called religion, then modern day science is the biggest religious cult on this planet and the biggest hypocritical assuming ruling body of so called theories and facts to date.

 

Buddhist cultivation may map out what is out there in other world systems, yet that doesn't mean people must believe it. Whatever is out there doesn't need anyone's belief/disbelief to be true, it will just be as it is.

 

Also, regardless of what "Buddhist" call Lao Zi ('s) work, it doesn't change the manner inwhich Buddhist education is to be cultivated. That means, it is to be cultivated to the capacity of the cultivator. Just because things are said to be a specific way, doesn't mean it will appear that way for all. It don't have to.

 

In regardds to the DDJ, yes it is a very basic concept of relativity for all living beings on this planet. A pretty damn good road map to get the mind and character straight so as to see the bigger picture, which many just fail to do. This "bigger picture" is spoken of in the DDJ, but it is unfortunately overlooked because it is the most difficult to accept.

 

As for "proving", I'm not in need of doing that for anyone, let anyone do it for themselves. Each and every individual will experience what they do according to their mind, and the method. Just because it isn't the same for everyone doesn't mean those "things" seen or experienced are not there...and the other way around as well.

This is exactly what religion is all about.
In the West we have a "branch" of religious thought  that is called theology: in this matter, people studied things like -how many angels can sit on a pinhead?- and various explanations on how the world is shaped, class of heavenly beings, etc...
This is what I call religion...
 
Everyone can easily prove to himself that bodhisattvas come from hindu tradition. People wanted to worship Gods: this was necessary to transform an ascetic movement (the original buddhism) into a religion.
 
Mahayana buddhism isn't just practice: it develops all sort of ideas about the cosmos, the mind and it's relation with other religion... I've heard buddhists that measure the realization of Lao-tzu as limited to alaya-consciousness.

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#38 Cheshire Cat

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:49 AM

It may be what you call religion, but it isn't religion at all...especially to the sense most people are aware of. If stating how many things are out there in the universe, and the many of them, as well as their workings are called religion, then modern day science is the biggest religious cult on this planet and the biggest hypocritical assuming ruling body of so called theories and facts to date.

 

There are statements based on dogmatic belief (the sutra say thus, so...) and there are statements based on shared experiences of this reality. The latter is called science. And yes, it's an hypocritical cult.



#39 林愛偉

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:44 PM

There are statements based on dogmatic belief (the sutra say thus, so...) and there are statements based on shared experiences of this reality.

:-)  People are the ones that make something to be dogmatic, for themselves, then push it on everyone. The Buddha's teachings kind of dispelled theneed to make people believe, and more so let people get it on their own , with a little commentary here and there...something to this effect ( and I wont quote exact words)... something equivalent to , i don't need you to defend the Dharma, and propagate against others. Just share it and hopefully something catches on.

 

sometimes people mess things up... hahahahahaha

 

Even I don't say, "Just because the Sutras say so..."  It has to make sense to the cultivator, in both their logic and reason. What the Sutras say may all be true, but it wont be that way for every cultivator because each mind is of different capacities.

 

This is why I can never say Buddhism is a religion at all, simply because there is a teaching within it that says to be very critical of the teachings. That means, even though one is to have faith in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, it is only possible if the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha of one's mind makes sense. Therefore, each teaching is an expedient means, a method made from the cultivator's mind which allows them to understand utilizing their own conditions.

 

 

The latter is called science. And yes, it's an hypocritical cult.

 

:D


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#40 shredem

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:16 PM

This is exactly what religion is all about.
In the West we have a "branch" of religious thought  that is called theology: in this matter, people studied things like -how many angels can sit on a pinhead?- and various explanations on how the world is shaped, class of heavenly beings, etc...
This is what I call religion...
 
Everyone can easily prove to himself that bodhisattvas come from hindu tradition. People wanted to worship Gods: this was necessary to transform an ascetic movement (the original buddhism) into a religion.
 
Mahayana buddhism isn't just practice: it develops all sort of ideas about the cosmos, the mind and it's relation with other religion... I've heard buddhists that measure the realization of Lao-tzu as limited to alaya-consciousness.

I wouldn't call it religion. I would call it life :)


NAMO RATNA TRAYAYA / NAMO ARYA JNANA SAGARA, VAIROCHANA / BYUHARA JARA TATHAGATAYA / ARAHATE SAMYAKSAM BUDDHAYA / NAMO SARWA TATHAGATE BHYAY ARHATA BHYAH / SAMVAKSAM BUDDHE BHVAH / NAMO AVALOKITE / SHORAYA BODHISATTVAYA / MAHA SATTVAYA / MAHA KARUNIKAYA / TADYATA / OM DARA DARA / DIRI DIRI / DURU DURU / ITTE WE / ITTE CHALE CHALE / PURACHALE PURACHALE KUSUME KUSUMA WA RE / ILI MILLI CHITI JVALAM / APANAVE SHOHA


#41 Cheshire Cat

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 11:46 PM

This is why I can never say Buddhism is a religion at all, simply because there is a teaching within it that says to be very critical of the teachings. That means, even though one is to have faith in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, it is only possible if the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha of one's mind makes sense. Therefore, each teaching is an expedient means, a method made from the cultivator's mind which allows them to understand utilizing their own conditions.

 

:-)

 

 

If it is so, can you explain how one can use the following statement to understand utilizing his own conditions?

 

 

"Oh yes, the Hindu Realms and Buddhist Realms interplay simply because they are of each other in different vibrational levels manifesting for specific functions in different realms.

 

 Different names, different forms, different functions, and definitely transformation bodies of each other. hahahaha  It gets so deep...and then, it is so obvious."

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't call it religion. I would call it life  :)

 

 

 

 

Yes, I agree.

Religion is human life.

... but enlightenment isn't an evolutionary stage of human conditions.

Religion takes human understanding and experience as definitive and complete. 

Thus, building philosophical structures... one on another. And then claiming that they are not philosophy, but reality itself. Lao-tzu flees on the mountains on seeing this  :D

Attributes that are exclusively humans -as compassion- becomes the attributes of the deities... or buddhas and bodhisattvas in the case of buddhism.

In the case of compassion, if it were the main attribute of a bodhisattva and the bodhisattvas act in the animal realm (animals are sentient beings in buddhism)... then we should find compassion among beasts. 


Edited by DAO rain TAO, 21 January 2013 - 07:44 AM.


#42 shredem

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:57 PM

I had to look over your past posts to truly understand what you mean. Now I understand. You're talking about how we add philosophy over reality. 

 

At first, I thought you were talking about how we can't trust experience but then I realized that you said that it is impossible to separate from experience. We're experiencing or the experience. I once tried to explain this to a friend and the guy was like I can't trust experience but the funny thing is that he's a christian fundamentalist haha. 

 

I think in terms of different realms, gods, beings, it depends on your research and interaction with them. Since in this age, we kinda shun such interaction, our knowledge of those beings, realms, will be limited and just left to accepting the stories of others who experienced such things. I rather do it for myself haha.

 

You sound like a magician yourself so I understand what you mean. In Hermetics, it is taught that you can fall into self-delusion easily doing magick. Whereas the genuine practice is when we all can meet the same god, being, realms ect. Of course, we'll notice something different about it but it's generally the same thing. It's like how we both meet the same person. Of course, our mind may change some stuff about them but they look the same to both of us and we can comment on that person and say exactly what that person said. The last bit a little downhill but you know what i mean. ;)


Edited by malikshreds, 21 January 2013 - 05:21 PM.

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NAMO RATNA TRAYAYA / NAMO ARYA JNANA SAGARA, VAIROCHANA / BYUHARA JARA TATHAGATAYA / ARAHATE SAMYAKSAM BUDDHAYA / NAMO SARWA TATHAGATE BHYAY ARHATA BHYAH / SAMVAKSAM BUDDHE BHVAH / NAMO AVALOKITE / SHORAYA BODHISATTVAYA / MAHA SATTVAYA / MAHA KARUNIKAYA / TADYATA / OM DARA DARA / DIRI DIRI / DURU DURU / ITTE WE / ITTE CHALE CHALE / PURACHALE PURACHALE KUSUME KUSUMA WA RE / ILI MILLI CHITI JVALAM / APANAVE SHOHA


#43 林愛偉

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

It is simple:  Interdependence.

 

Firstly: Hindu / Buddhist realms...just saying those names to keep a focus on the convo. Truthfully, none of those names exist in the "higher" levels of vibration because there is no discrimination of cultivation methods in terms of preference, only function, for example:  A method that results in the transformation towards high level negatively functioning energy would be called, in our world, Demonic practices. That which results in the transformation towards high level positively functioning energy would be called Wholesome practices.

 

When I said :  Different names, different forms, different functions, and definitely transformation bodies of each other. hahahaha  It gets so deep...and then, it is so obvious.-  This refers to the function of these beings and how they create various differences just to appeal to living beings, in order to teach them.

 

If you wanted to use this as a way to understanding one's own conditions, you would first need to realize that discriminating thinking will be the obstacles. These states that I speak of above, show the interdependence of all things.

 

:-)

 

 

If it is so, can you explain how one can use the following statement to understand utilizing his own conditions?

 

 

"Oh yes, the Hindu Realms and Buddhist Realms interplay simply because they are of each other in different vibrational levels manifesting for specific functions in different realms.

 

 Different names, different forms, different functions, and definitely transformation bodies of each other. hahahaha  It gets so deep...and then, it is so obvious."

 

 

 


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#44 林愛偉

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:58 PM

Human conditions are based on ignorant thinking. Enlightenment is simply because there is ignorance.

Remove ignorance, and all that is left is wisdom. Nothing to do with evolution, and nothing to do with religion.

 

We don't know why Lao Zi fled to the mountains. But in light that he awakened and decided solitary life is right for him, possibly he personally had felt done with relating to people. That may not be right for every one and for anyone cultivating the Way. Its just his preference..

 

... but enlightenment isn't an evolutionary stage of human conditions.

Religion takes human understanding and experience as definitive and complete. 

Thus, building philosophical structures... one on another. And then claiming that they are not philosophy, but reality itself. Lao-tzu flees on the mountains on seeing this  :D

 

 

Attributes that are exclusively humans -as compassion- becomes the attributes of the deities... or buddhas and bodhisattvas in the case of buddhism.

In the case of compassion, if it were the main attribute of a bodhisattva and the bodhisattvas act in the animal realm (animals are sentient beings in buddhism)... then we should find compassion among beasts.

 

Nope. Compassion isn't exclusive to humans. It is shown throughout all forms of living beings, and in any other "religion" out there. It is not exclusive to the Buddhist school of cultivation. And it isn't exclusive, or makes one become, a deity, etc. It only makes on become a really good person. :-)

 

As for Compassion among beasts, hahaha  we have that already. But you are looking at it from the expectation of fluffly cloud rabbits and happy sunflowers. Compassion is shown throughout the animal world, yet compassion doesn't mean everything is all happy and fluffy. It means that there is wisdom present, there is what is needed for that living being without the obstacles of greed, anger and ignorance.

 

Compassion can be nice and sweet, and or hard and rough to deal with. Depends on the conditions in the mind of the living being at the time. Maybe they don't get it when you are nice and sweet to them, so you yell, and give them a scare they never expected. Then they turn straight on the path and properly cultivate.


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#45 shredem

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 06:18 PM

Human conditions are based on ignorant thinking. Enlightenment is simply because there is ignorance.

Remove ignorance, and all that is left is wisdom. Nothing to do with evolution, and nothing to do with religion.

 

We don't know why Lao Zi fled to the mountains. But in light that he awakened and decided solitary life is right for him, possibly he personally had felt done with relating to people. That may not be right for every one and for anyone cultivating the Way. Its just his preference..

 

 

 

 

Nope. Compassion isn't exclusive to humans. It is shown throughout all forms of living beings, and in any other "religion" out there. It is not exclusive to the Buddhist school of cultivation. And it isn't exclusive, or makes one become, a deity, etc. It only makes on become a really good person. :-)

 

As for Compassion among beasts, hahaha  we have that already. But you are looking at it from the expectation of fluffly cloud rabbits and happy sunflowers. Compassion is shown throughout the animal world, yet compassion doesn't mean everything is all happy and fluffy. It means that there is wisdom present, there is what is needed for that living being without the obstacles of greed, anger and ignorance.

 

Compassion can be nice and sweet, and or hard and rough to deal with. Depends on the conditions in the mind of the living being at the time. Maybe they don't get it when you are nice and sweet to them, so you yell, and give them a scare they never expected. Then they turn straight on the path and properly cultivate.

Makes perfect sense Lin. I think that's the problem with using English terms some times because of the english connotation and denotation that we have of the word. I think "way of life" is a better word than religion because religion is looked with such disgrace. The word religion was not even used till like c. 1200 AD. All of our english words come from another language. So it's sometimes foolish to talk about buddhism and daoism in English but that's what we have to do though.


NAMO RATNA TRAYAYA / NAMO ARYA JNANA SAGARA, VAIROCHANA / BYUHARA JARA TATHAGATAYA / ARAHATE SAMYAKSAM BUDDHAYA / NAMO SARWA TATHAGATE BHYAY ARHATA BHYAH / SAMVAKSAM BUDDHE BHVAH / NAMO AVALOKITE / SHORAYA BODHISATTVAYA / MAHA SATTVAYA / MAHA KARUNIKAYA / TADYATA / OM DARA DARA / DIRI DIRI / DURU DURU / ITTE WE / ITTE CHALE CHALE / PURACHALE PURACHALE KUSUME KUSUMA WA RE / ILI MILLI CHITI JVALAM / APANAVE SHOHA


#46 林愛偉

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:28 PM

Makes perfect sense Lin. I think that's the problem with using English terms some times because of the english connotation and denotation that we have of the word. I think "way of life" is a better word than religion because religion is looked with such disgrace. The word religion was not even used till like c. 1200 AD. All of our english words come from another language. So it's sometimes foolish to talk about buddhism and daoism in English but that's what we have to do though.

 

 

Its totally cool to talk about Daoism and Buddhism in English because its the principles that cross culture and integrate with cultural lifestyles. The only trouble that one may get into is lack of understanding of the culture it manifested in prior to the one it mixed into . Meaning, if we get Daoism from China, and it integrates culturally into the western cultures, let's say America, then what we will need to do, in order to actually get the profundity of Daoism, is to understand China's cultural history, sociology and lifestyle first. Especially language and contextual uses of it. This way we can really get deep about understanding Daoism.

 

With Buddhism, its understanding that before it manifested in India, it was simply just a cultivation method. If we see, there is only cultural influences of Buddhist education with India's indigenous culture so that the teachings may be accepted. It had nothing to do with a set manner of practice unchangeable to the masses. So if we want to understand Buddhism, on one hand we best learn the culture in which we are studying it from; be it India's cultural expression or China's, Japan's, Korea, or even South East Asia. And after that, maybe someone will get America's cultural expression of Buddhism and have to do the same thing.

 

Religion, this word is funny...not in definition, but in context. For one, it is not religious, by means of both context and definition, to have a respect for other beings of other realms, or other manners of practice from other realms. The problem comes when with our methods we wish to "prove" the existence of these places and beings. Why must our methods of science be the only ones we can use to find out if these places exist?

 

Why not just simply cultivate the mind and see for one's self?  I mean, if I want to go to Mars, and find out what's going on there, why not just cultivate and develop strength in the method that allows me to go there? Its quite simple, but seems like no one wants to actually do the things that get them results on their own. Maybe some are afraid of having faith in themselves to actually get the answers from their own inner wisdom. :-)


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#47 Cheshire Cat

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:17 AM

You sound like a magician yourself so I understand what you mean. In Hermetics, it is taught that you can fall into self-delusion easily doing magick. Whereas the genuine practice is when we all can meet the same god, being, realms ect. Of course, we'll notice something different about it but it's generally the same thing. It's like how we both meet the same person. Of course, our mind may change some stuff about them but they look the same to both of us and we can comment on that person and say exactly what that person said. The last bit a little downhill but you know what i mean. ;)

 

Yes  :)

I add just a little shade.

 

 

Imagine a wandering seeker, a traveler who accidentally falls asleep under a tree, one night.
A thief suddenly appears and steals the traveler's boots.
 
This would be the greatest misfortune for the seeker because he use to walk all day long.
 
Now imagine a noble Raja who sits on his sofà all day long, listening to instrumental music and watching dances.
One night, a thief steals his boots.
 
The Raja would hardly notice the missing. Probably, the thief makes him a favor because now he sits more comfortably.
 
The same thing has a different meaning for different persons.
Even if they experience the same accident, it has different connotations because of their different way of living.
 
It's the same with spiritual beings (like bodhisattvas): in the real world, there's no such a thing as absolute goodness and benefit. What's good for you, may be harmful for other things (even if you don't consider them as sentient beings: shamans all over the world teach that everything is "aware").
Everything has different sides which we -as humans- depict them as good and evil, based on our view.
 
So, I may deduce that what's good for people similar to me, it's good for me... but if something is depicted as the absolute "panacea", excellent for everyone, perfect and complete by itself (like the zhunti mantra), then doubts pop in my mind.  :P

Edited by DAO rain TAO, 22 January 2013 - 04:13 AM.


#48 Cheshire Cat

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:38 AM

It is simple:  Interdependence.

 

 

Firstly: Hindu / Buddhist realms...just saying those names to keep a focus on the convo. Truthfully, none of those names exist in the "higher" levels of vibration because there is no discrimination of cultivation methods in terms of preference, only function, for example:  A method that results in the transformation towards high level negatively functioning energy would be called, in our world, Demonic practices. That which results in the transformation towards high level positively functioning energy would be called Wholesome practices.

 

This is the theory, and it is very profound.

But, let's look at the practices: hindu deities require devotion and prayers. To practice with a deity means basically... to pray and carrying some specific kind of vows.

This is what people do in buddhism and vedic religion.

You yourself say that the only discrimination is in term of function and I agree. Thus, in this case there's no difference in worshiping a hindu deity or his equivalent buddhist deity because the Buddha said "Work out your salvation" and not "Find a God who may save you".. not even "Adjust your external conditions so that you may cultivate in peace".

 

But then I ask: Why did Shakyamuni introduced those additional deities?

At his time, deities practices were observed. What was the use of this?

If Shakyamuni never introduced any gods worship practices, then we may assume that the deities themselves changed their outer names (or appeared in new manifestations). But, if this is the case, then Shakyamuni did something wrong that required a "fixing action" from the gods. He settled an incomplete dharma.


Edited by DAO rain TAO, 22 January 2013 - 04:16 AM.





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