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Marblehead

[TTC Study] Chapter 16 of the Tao Teh Ching

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But you are right in that if a person has fully self-actualized this would not even be a thought to be considered because they would be doing what was best for themself.

Well, that is what the chapter is about and what Hilmer is translating as well. If we want to turn every chapter into what old folks in wheel chairs do, then I don't see the point to discuss any translation. There is sometimes so much tangential posts in these chapter discussions it's hard to know if the chapter has any discussion value at times. But I at least understand where you were coming from now.

Edited by dawei

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here is my translation:

 

Devote yourself to the utmost emptiness

.....To be with the Way is to be everlasting

As long as you live [this way], there will be no peril too great

 

The first line opens with: 致 = attain, devote, cause to come, bring about

The last line ends with: 殆 = precarious, dangerous, perilous, tired, afraid

 

I think the last line is meant to convey that given all the above, life is not defined as pain and peril. ..... But they return like everything else.

 

Hilmer Alquiros has an interesting translation of the last line as: "the loss of the body is no danger" , as in no concern.

 

here the thing is that the meaning of the chapter is cristal clear however it is so way off the common frame of reference that it IS unthinkable.

 

"by becoming empty one gets rid of the physical body and lives forever w/o it. no body = no danger"

 

simple as that.

 

 

致虛極,守靜篤。萬物並作,吾以觀復。夫物芸芸,各復歸其根。歸根曰靜,是謂復命。復命曰常,知常曰明。不知常,妄作凶。知常容,容乃公,公乃王,王乃天,天乃道,道乃久,沒身不殆。

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"by becoming empty one gets rid of the physical body and lives forever w/o it. no body = no danger"

 

 

Ah! But there is the problem. I do not accept that understanding because of my belief system therefore I must find other meaning in the chapter.

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here the thing is that the meaning of the chapter is cristal clear however it is so way off the common frame of reference that it IS unthinkable.

 

"by becoming empty one gets rid of the physical body and lives forever w/o it. no body = no danger"

 

simple as that.

 

 

致虛極,守靜篤。萬物並作,吾以觀復。夫物芸芸,各復歸其根。歸根曰靜,是謂復命。復命曰常,知常曰明。不知常,妄作凶。知常容,容乃公,公乃王,王乃天,天乃道,道乃久,沒身不殆。

I recall in a medical qigong class being challenged with a kind of koan: "Are you solid?"

 

I think when one gets to the point of answering "no", this line makes a lot more sense

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I recall in a medical qigong class being challenged with a kind of koan: "Are you solid?"

 

I think when one gets to the point of answering "no", this line makes a lot more sense

 

But the other evening when I walked smack into the bathroom door, which I normally leave open, I realized how solid I and the door are.

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But the other evening when I walked smack into the bathroom door, which I normally leave open, I realized how solid I and the door are.

That is just defining based on the physical level. Like concentric circles, that is an inner circle. The key is to get to the outer circles.

 

This may be one of those chapters where it is not to be discussed as much as discovered.

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That is just defining based on the physical level. Like concentric circles, that is an inner circle. The key is to get to the outer circles.

 

This may be one of those chapters where it is not to be discussed as much as discovered.

 

Yeah, but then, remembering that I am a materialist, I have this need to find the applicability in thoughts and concepts in order to find their usefulness.

 

Perhaps you are right in that it might be better to not discuss it so much but just let the realization of what is said present itself.

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keep to the state of perfect peace

all things come into existence

and then we see them return

look at the things that have been flourishing

each goes back to the origin

going back to the origin is called peace

it means reversion to destiny

 

excellent meditation principles

 

 

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Hope this interruption is not too disruptive Marblehead. I haven't been available for several months and now I find I'm unable to access a topic of mine, "Tao Now" that had a long run, but apparently isn't within the scope of available old postings. I've tried search but it doesn't work. Can you (or anyone) suggest how to access it?

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I see my masters edition of this stanza has a lot in it. I would have discussed this more under the 'shamanistic' thread. The last two paragraphs say it all!

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Marblehead said:

Ah! But there is the problem. I do not accept that understanding because of my belief system therefore I must find other meaning in the chapter.

 

Mighty convenient systemic problem, my dear.

 

So let me tells ya how to fix yer problem… first ya drills a little hole innit and ya sneaks in from behind~ an ya lets out all the smoke❤

 

Ya gotta go to the source yerself— none of that chicken-scratch or personalistic belief crap. Watch and learn, sweety.

 

Chapter 16, by yours truly…

 

 

Emptiness is the limit of the limitless

 

The Center has never moved

 

As things act up

 

Witness Return

 

As Creation returns

 

See Return rooted in stillness

 

Stillness is the ultimate of survival

 

Survival is living long

 

Knowledge of long life is wise

 

Suffering Causelessness is ignorant

 

Knowledge of beginninglessness is seeing nonbeing

 

Selfless Nonbeing has no partiality

 

Impersonal awareness has no equal

 

The unsurpassed is Celestial Nature

 

Celestial means the Way

 

The Way living long

 

Serene and unperturbable

 

 

If ya don't believe me, find out for yourself, no different than the wizards who found out and continue to do what is necessary to keep the authentic knowledge alive. They don't content themselves with belief, rehashing it ad-nausium. They look back on the words as a talisman to give unsurpassed experience of the Real a voice for the ageless pivot of awareness that has never tasted Change.

 

Do you believe the authentic teachings are based on belief? Why are you so satisfied with your belief, hmmmm? You're not dead yet. Why don't you find out for yourself, mr bikinis and shorts skirts!! hahaha!!❤

 

 

 

ed note: Add everything but the quote and attributed it to Marblehead

Edited by deci belle

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When the Sage speaks of Return, it is not that the ten thousand things and creation itself is outside of your own existence. You yourself are comprised of billions of living organisms right now. This is not philosophy— it's you. Can you be still?

 

So when you personally witness the extreme of stillness, you can then know Return. The result of the extreme of stillness is Return, symbolized by the 24th hexagram: one yang line under five yin lines. Return is the first emergence of pure yang from within the extreme of stillness. This is not a matter of activity, but of experiential knowledge of the stirring of the Real.

 

The symbols of the I Ching are too ancient to know in terms of scholastic generalities. The knowledge imbedded in the symbols are older than Chinese culture. Even thought the current order of the Hexegrams attributed to Fu Hsi, 3000 BC; were arranged by King Wen and the lines elucidated by his son, Duke of the Chou Dynasty, 1100 BC; and various early commentaries attributed to the humanist, educator and philosopher Confucious, 5th~6th centuries BC, the source of this ancient sourcebook clearly has survived by virtue of its utilitarian cloak as a book of prognostication.

 

Wizards take the 24th hexagram's commentary expressed by Confucious as evidence of the knowledge imbedded in the ancient symbols and signs predating Fu Hsi's creation of the doubling of the trigrams and their arrangement by King Wen. It reads:

 

THUNDER IS IN THE EARTH; RETURN. THUS DID THE KINGS OF YORE SHUT THE GATES ON THE WINTER SOLSTICE; CARAVANS DID NOT TRAVEL, THE RULER DID NOT INSPECT THE REGIONS.

 

Was this included in the I Ching and Mentioned by Lao Tzu, just in case some absent-minded emperor might forget what to do on the winter solstice? More philosophical drivel accidentally made it into a spiritual classic? Get a grip ye literalists and recreationalists.

 

Not using discriminatory consciousness (inspect the regions); stilling arbitrary opportunistic activities (caravans); shutting sensual perception and employing impersonal awareness in the extreme of stillness (the king shutting the gates on the winter solstice); the limit of the limitless spontaneously reverts to Celestial movement (thunder is in the earth, return).

 

This is no different that my version of the 16th chapter in the above post. I am not making this stuff up. There is just no excuse to habitually ponder the meanings of words of the TTC in in terms of philosophy other than pure laziness.

 

In order to recognize the wellspring of this first emergence of pure yang within oneself, one must be able to find emptiness in the extreme of stillness in one's own mind. "But for the return not to be difficult, it is necessary to know clearly where the source of the river is, movement coming from the extreme of stillness. Lao Tzu said, 'Effect emptiness to the extreme, guard stillness carefully; as myriad things act in concert, I thereby watch the return.' The I Ching says, 'Repeating the path, coming back in seven days.' Both of these point to this river source where the mind of Tao and its real knowledge arise." (From Chang Po-tuan's Understanding Reality, written in 1000AD)

 

Hmmmmm, doesn't sound like a whole lotta belief going on around here, does there? Where does the literalist translation/philosophy crowd get its arbitrary ideas to idly pass the time entertaining and clinging to personalistic beliefs and dead interpretations? The Classics are the result of enlightening activity by enlightening beings. You'd think that was the secret of enlightenment itself, but it's not. The classics have been left behind to guide those with the will to enlightenment, not recreationalists smugly abusing the work of ages as a mere pastime, suggesting that Lao Tzu's immortal classic is at core, a philosophical work.

 

To be sure, the 16th chapter has at its core, a profound depth of transcendent awareness, and even a simple elucidation of the Celestial design in ordinary terms. It is just that worldlings cannot recognize what is not less in ignoramuses and not more in buddhas. That is, recognizing the real in the midst of the false with the knowledge that if not for the false, there would be no real to recognize.

 

Few people know the I Ching is a glossary of types of time and that recognizing the real in the midst of the false is a matter of times. Movement and stillness is the alternation of changes. One yin and one yang is Change. This is why enlightening beings watch Return. Endless transformations take place therein. The alternations of yin and yang are irrefutable. Nothing can exist that does not follow the inexorable alternations of its breath. Yogis watch their breath; wizards watch the rhythm of Creation to observe Return in order to transcend Change; thereby to live long, serene and unperturbable. Only enlightening beings who witness the unchanging can transcend the cycles of Created changes while in the midst of ordinary situations unbeknownst to anyone.

 

The movement from the extreme of stillness is precisely when the great medicine appears. This movement is the movement of mind itself from within the extreme of one's own empty stillness. This is not meditation practice. This is the awareness of enlightened mind, no different than your own everyday mind— but you must first see this mind in order to bring it to consciousness.

 

It is not a matter of arbitrarily stilling the mind and body's movement, but rather observing the rhythm of one's own activity and stillness with subtle concentration over a long period of time. Subtle concentration is the extreme inner stillness of nonpsychological observation. This is the meaning of "refine the self and await the time". The time refers to the spontaneous arising of the Celestial from the extreme of stillness: Return. One rests securely in this.

 

Being insecure means producing feelings in regard to objects. Resting is truly knowing where real knowledge arises.

 

"THE PRECIOUS WORDS OF THE YIN CONVERGENCE EXCEED THREE HUNDRED, THE SPIRITUAL WORDS OF THE POWER OF TAO ARE FULLY FIVE THOUSAND. THE SUPERIOR IMMORTALS OF PAST AND PRESENT HAVE ALL ARRIVED AT THE TRUE EXPLANATION HEREIN."

 

It said spiritual, not philosophical. It said explanation, not meaning. Literalist translators and dabblers in recreational philosophy ought to take particular note here.

 

Since the classic on the Yin Convergence is mentioned in the same breath as the Power of Tao, I ask you: how many of you have even heard of the Yin Convergence Classic, much less studied it with the will to enlightenment?

 

"From ancient times to the present, the adepts have all investigated the true principles in these two classics and arrived at the real explanation, whereby they have comprehended essence and life."

 

 

 

 

ed note: two typos in the fourth paragraph, quotes from Chang Po-tuan's Understanding Reality translated by Thomas Cleary. University of Hawaii Press, 1987.

Edited by deci belle

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When the Sage speaks of Return, it is not that the ten thousand things and creation itself is outside of your own existence. You yourself are comprised of billions of living organisms right now. This is not philosophy— it's you. Can you be still?

 

So when you personally witness the extreme of stillness, you can then know Return. The result of the extreme of stillness is Return, symbolized by the 24th hexagram: one yang line under five yin lines. Return is the first emergence of pure yang from within the extreme of stillness. This is not a matter of activity, but of experiential knowledge of the stirring of the Real.

 

The symbols of the I Ching are too ancient to know in terms of scholastic generalities. The knowledge imbedded in the symbols are older than Chinese culture. Even thought the current order of the Hexegrams attributed to Fu Hsi, 3000 BC; were arranged by King Wen and the lines elucidated by his son, Duke of the Chou Dynasty, 1100 BC; and various early commentaries attributed to the humanist, educator and philosopher Confucious, 5th~6th centuries BC, the source of this ancient sourcebook clearly has survived by virtue of its utilitarian cloak as a book of prognostication.

 

Wizards take the 24th hexagram's commentary expressed by Confucious as evidence of the knowledge imbedded in the ancient symbols and signs predating Fu Hsi's creation of the doubling of the trigrams and their arrangement by King Wen. It reads:

 

THUNDER IS IN THE EARTH; RETURN. THUS DID THE KINGS OF YORE SHUT THE GATES ON THE WINTER SOLSTICE; CARAVANS DID NOT TRAVEL, THE RULER DID NOT INSPECT THE REGIONS.

 

Was this included in the I Ching and Mentioned by Lao Tzu, just in case some absent-minded emperor might forget what to do on the winter solstice? More philosophical drivel accidentally made it into a spiritual classic? Get a grip ye literalists and recreationalists.

 

Not using discriminatory consciousness (inspect the regions); stilling arbitrary opportunistic activities (caravans); shutting sensual perception and employing impersonal awareness in the extreme of stillness (the king shutting the gates on the winter solstice); the limit of the limitless spontaneously reverts to Celestial movement (thunder is in the earth, return).

 

This is no different that my version of the 16th chapter in the above post. I am not making this stuff up. There is just no excuse to habitually ponder the meanings of words of the TTC in in terms of philosophy other than pure laziness.

 

In order to recognize the wellspring of this first emergence of pure yang within oneself, one must be able to find emptiness in the extreme of stillness in one's own mind. "But for the return not to be difficult, it is necessary to know clearly where the source of the river is, movement coming from the extreme of stillness. Lao Tzu said, 'Effect emptiness to the extreme, guard stillness carefully; as myriad things act in concert, I thereby watch the return.' The I Ching says, 'Repeating the path, coming back in seven days.' Both of these point to this river source where the mind of Tao and its real knowledge arise." (From Chang Po-tuan's Understanding Reality, written in 1000AD)

 

Hmmmmm, doesn't sound like a whole lotta belief going on around here, does there? Where does the literalist translation/philosophy crowd get its arbitrary ideas to idly pass the time entertaining and clinging to personalistic beliefs and dead interpretations? The Classics are the result of enlightening activity by enlightening beings. You'd think that was the secret of enlightenment itself, but it's not. The classics have been left behind to guide those with the will to enlightenment, not recreationalists smugly abusing the work of ages as a mere pastime, suggesting that Lao Tzu's immortal classic is at core, a philosophical work.

 

To be sure, the 16th chapter has at its core, a profound depth of transcendent awareness, and even a simple elucidation of the Celestial design in ordinary terms. It is just that worldlings cannot recognize what is not less in ignoramuses and not more in buddhas. That is, recognizing the real in the midst of the false with the knowledge that if not for the false, there would be no real to recognize.

 

Few people know the I Ching is a glossary of types of time and that recognizing the real in the midst of the false is a matter of times. Movement and stillness is the alternation of changes. One yin and one yang is Change. This is why enlightening beings watch Return. Endless transformations take place therein. The alternations of yin and yang are irrefutable. Nothing can exist that does not follow the inexorable alternations of its breath. Yogis watch their breath; wizards watch the rhythm of Creation to observe Return in order to transcend Change; thereby to live long, serene and unperturbable. Only enlightening beings who witness the unchanging can transcend the cycles of Created changes while in the midst of ordinary situations unbeknownst to anyone.

 

The movement from the extreme of stillness is precisely when the great medicine appears. This movement is the movement of mind itself from within the extreme of one's own empty stillness. This is not meditation practice. This is the awareness of enlightened mind, no different than your own everyday mind— but you must first see this mind in order to bring it to consciousness.

 

It is not a matter of arbitrarily stilling the mind and body's movement, but rather observing the rhythm of one's own activity and stillness with subtle concentration over a long period of time. Subtle concentration is the extreme inner stillness of nonpsychological observation. This is the meaning of "refine the self and await the time". The time refers to the spontaneous arising of the Celestial from the extreme of stillness: Return. One rests securely in this.

 

Being insecure means producing feelings in regard to objects. Resting is truly knowing where real knowledge arises.

 

"THE PRECIOUS WORDS OF THE YIN CONVERGENCE EXCEED THREE HUNDRED, THE SPIRITUAL WORDS OF THE POWER OF TAO ARE FULLY FIVE THOUSAND. THE SUPERIOR IMMORTALS OF PAST AND PRESENT HAVE ALL ARRIVED AT THE TRUE EXPLANATION HEREIN."

 

It said spiritual, not philosophical. It said explanation, not meaning. Literalist translators and dabblers in recreational philosophy ought to take particular note here.

 

Since the classic on the Yin Convergence is mentioned in the same breath as the Power of Tao, I ask you: how many of you have even heard of the Yin Convergence Classic, much less studied it with the will to enlightenment?

 

"From ancient times to the present, the adepts have all investigated the true principles in these two classics and arrived at the real explanation, whereby they have comprehended essence and life."

 

 

 

 

ed note: two typos in the fourth paragraph, quotes from Chang Po-tuan's Understanding Reality translated by Thomas Cleary. University of Hawaii Press, 1987.

 

Note- This was originally misposted in the Shamanistic treatise thread... sorry about that.

 

I wanted to weigh in on this discussion, because I think the comments made here are misleading as to the actual meaning of this chapter. First, many people like to apply a mystical connotation to this chapter that does not exist. The return that Lao Tzu mentions, for instance, is not a return to some mystical state that preexisted our birth, but rather a return to our natural state at birth, in other words the state of the infant.

 

Now how do I know this, because I don't take one chapter and decide it's meaning without looking at other chapters to compare it to. Lao Tzu says that the Tao cannot be spoken of, nor described, yet we can understand the process of Tao by looking at nature (the Mother as he calls it). By examining those things that come from the mother we can understand the PROCESS of Tao, but not define or explain Tao itself.

 

Why did Lao Tzu do this, rather than explain how everything began? Well it's simple and he actually tells us why, because the beginning is not so important as the present. Lao Tzu emphasized a need to stay in the present and not reflect on the past. The past is done, it's dust and it's over, but the present is here and now, it's the only thing we can effect with our actions, so in Lao Tzu's view reflecting on hypotheticals that could never be proved was useless, it was much more important to reflect on what was here and now and could be proven.

 

The return that Lao Tzu mentions was a return to our original nature, the nature we were born with, the state of the infant. It's simply a recognition of his other teachings, and the simplest way to explain this is by reviewing the Three Treasures, which are Compassion, Frugality, and Never Striving to be First in the World. To simplify this even more it simply means, being kind to others, appreciating what we need, and not competing with others needlessly. Nothing really mystical about it, except that it requires a great deal of introspection to come to grasp these notions again, since much of our life is spent learning the opposite.

 

Lao Tzu said that the perfect village was one where the villagers in one village could hear the rooster crow in the other without knowing what they were doing. So in a perfect world we would not worry so much how other people practiced, but rather what we were doing ourselves. Of course this isn't a perfect world, so the message I tend to offer people is that the truth is within them, that everything else is extraneous.

 

Aaron

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But if you look closely enough you will see there is no beginning and no end and no frontier between what is the fantasy of rising and the fantasy of falling.

Looking back over this chapter and the discussion on rising and falling, I have also seen my thoughts rise and fall...

 

It seems to me that only 'things' rise and fall; that which is eternal does not ; that is to say there is no beginning and no end.

 

So it would seem to be a particular predicament of the 'things' stage [of eternity] to experience or observe this rising and falling (or returning of one prefers that); it is the nature of the manifest world and not really some kind of nature of dao.

 

I also see the open more clearly:

Emptiness = of 'things'; thus 'things' are potential.

Stillness = of 'movement'; thus 'arising/falling' is kinetic.

 

The result is the manifest world which is absent of the emptiness and stillness in which dao may be said to reside (although I don't quite like to word it that way, it comes close to conveying what I mean). So returning may not be so much a cyclic return but rather simply 'restoring destiny' (Xiang'er text); a state of emptiness and stillness. Our minds comprehend this as a cycle because we see cyclic like behavior in nature.

 

 

"Heaven and earth were born at the same time I was,

and the ten thousand things are one with me"-Zhuang Zi (Tr. Bruce Watson)

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Seems strange to me that so few translations utilize the original imagery:

 

 

03 萬物並作,(Wang Bi)

萬物旁作(Ma Wang Dui)

Myriad creatures, at the same time, arising

Myriad creatures, side by side, mutually arising

 

04 吾以觀復。

吾以觀亓復也

They thereby observe the return (as well)

 

05 天物:芸芸

天物雲﹦

Heavens creatures, like many clouds (scattered through the sky)

 

06 各復歸其根。

各復

Each one returns back to their foundations

Each one returns

 

 

 

I think this also reflects the first line of the Yin Fu Ching as well. "Emulate the way of Heaven. That is all."

 

edit: to add my exact translation of these lines from the Yin Fu Ching:

觀天之道,執天之行,盡矣

Observe the Dao of Heaven. Keep Heaven within, everywhere you go, until the very end.

 

(my translations.. a bit more here)

Edited by Harmonious Emptiness

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I think this also reflects the first line of the Yin Fu Ching as well. "Emulate the way of Heaven. That is all."

I will suggest a different direction: Not to emulate the way of heaven as that is a part of our outer senses to make sense of our world through the chinese model of correspondence of the microcosm and macrocosm: If you see that cycle in the heavens that cycle must exist in the earth.

 

For a long time I followed this idea and pursued a lot of study in it, but now I see it differently. Don't emulate the way of heaven. Emulate the way of Zi-Ran. That allows oneself to be who and what they are. The heavens are the heavens. The earth is the earth. Man is man. Yourself is yourself. Don't make judgments

 

I am coming to a conclusion that any teaching, practice, or work effort which has a goal to achieve something is itself a deception on some level. While I do believe one can experience something more, I think one has to ask themself: Exactly how is this helping humanity? If this is only helping yourself then ok... go off and do it but realize your only really caring about yourself. And if it is about yourself then understand this is about SELF. What is it you want to achieve? Be serious with yourself.

 

But ask yourself: What are you giving to humanity? If nothing then maybe why post so much about self? If you believe it is something else then why post here instead of simply being busy giving to humanity? These are rhetorical questions for those who need the explanation....

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...D

on't emulate the way of heaven. Emulate the way of Zi-Ran. That allows oneself to be who and what they are. The heavens are the heavens. The earth is the earth. Man is man. Yourself is yourself. Don't make judgments

...

Exactly.

 

I still have a problem with that last sentence though. Hehehe.

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Yes, emulate is a problematic word to use. I was just going quickly by memory for that one. Now that I'm looking at the original Chinese, I remeber translating/rendering it closer to:

 

觀天之道,執天之行,盡矣

Observe the Dao of Heaven. Keep Heaven within, everywhere you go, until the very end.

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Observe the Dao of Heaven. Keep Heaven within, everywhere you go, until the very end.

Yes, That is much closer to the truth, I think.

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觀天之道,執天之行,盡矣

 

【译文】观察天道运行之规律,并按照天之运行规律行动,一包括在其中了。

Observe the principles of heaven(the natural law), follow the movements of these principles, it is all encompass.

 

 

 

Ref: http://www.culcn.cn/...sp?newsid=20954

Edited by ChiDragon

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Mr Chi, what is your interpretation of Chapter 16 based on your understanding of the Chinese text?

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Chapter 16

1. Reaching vacuousness to its extremity,

2. Maintaining stillness ultimately.

3. All things are being vitalized,

4. I observed that they are reciprocating.

5. Therefore, all things are flourishing,

6. Each returns to its root,

7. Returns to its root means stillness.

8. Stillness means returns to its essential.

9. Returns to essential is called the basic routine.

10.Knowing the routine is called comprehension.

11.Not knowing the basic routine,

12.Will act rashly become chaotic.

13.Knowing the basic routine is encompassing.

14.Encompassing is justice.

15.Justice is wholeness.

16.Wholeness is natural.

17.Natural is Tao.

18.Tao is eternal.

19.Thus, the whole lifespan will be in no danger.

 

1. 致 虛 極

2. 守 靜 篤 。

3. 萬 物 並 作 ,

4. 吾 以 觀 復 。

5. 夫 物 芸 芸

6. 各 復 歸 其 根 。

7. 歸 根 曰 靜 ,

8. 是 謂 復 命 ;

9. 復 命 曰 常 ,

10. 知 常 曰 明 。

11. 不 知 常 ,

12.妄 作 凶 。

13.知 常 容 ,

14.容 乃 公 ,

15.公 乃 全 ,

16.全 乃 天 ,

17.天 乃 道 ,

18.道 乃 久 ,

19.沒 身 不 殆 。

Edited by ChiDragon

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